Austrian Lorenz Repop

[marlin teat]

I was looking around in an antinque store this afternoon and found a bayonet. It was locked in a case so I didn't get to handle it but it was obviously for a muzzle smaller than .577, probably .54. I have a couple of questions:

1. Were there any .54 caliber weapons other than the Lorenz that took a triangular bayonet?

2. What features and markings should I look for? I know nothing about Lorenz bayonets.

3. What is the going price for a Lorenz bayonet in v.g. shape?

Thanks

[KentuckyReb]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

Actually, I don't think it's a Lorenz bayonet, unless I'm wrong in thinking that they were 4-sided.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

It could have been a postwar bayonet, such as a Martini Henry or Trapdoor Springfield.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

I would agree it is probably a trapdoor 45/70 since they are very common. In addition the outside diameter of a .54 Austrian Lorenz barrel and one re-rifled to .58 is the same.

[NY Pvt]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

You can confuse other details of the lorenz at first sight with the Springfield and Enfield, but the difference in the socket is hard to miss.

All of the Springfield and Enfield bayonets from during the war and post war had 90 degree angles in the opening in the socket as seen here:

http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/descriptiondisplay.html?bayonetm18552rivetscab

http://shilohrelics.com/Assets/Product/Images/SR936720038241739184.jpg

The Lorenz didn't, as seen here:

http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/picturedisplay.html?bayonetlorenzcompletevg

[58 lorenz]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

I paid around $250 for a Lorenz bayonet in a nice 2-rivet scabbard on eBay early last year.

[marlin teat]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

I'm going to try to get back to look at it again this weekend. I looked up some pictures of Martini-Henry baynets and the locking ring was entirely different although there may have been variatons.

As I mentioned, the inside diameter was smaller than the outside diameter of any "common" military caliber weapon that I'm aware of. Other than that, it had the outward appearance of any bayonet that you would glance at on a table at a relic show and move on.

The asking price was $125.00.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Lorenz Bayonet

3. What is the going price for a Lorenz bayonet in v.g. shape?

I bought this one at the Richmond show in Novermber of 03 for 125. The going price at the shows is between 100 and 135 although one recently sold on e-bay for less than 100. The one pictured is in very good condition and required no cleaning or fitting to my original Lorenz.

[James Brenner]

Clarification - Lorenz bayonet and scabbard

While I suspect that they do, can someone confirm that a Lorenz four-sided bayonet will fit in a c.1860 US scabbard intended for a triangular bayonet, please? The 104th OVI received Lorenz muskets in September 1862 and Enfields w/bayonets three months later. None of the regiment's primary sources suggest that new scabbards accompanied the Enfield issue. I haven't yet found an answer in any of the secondary sources I've consulted: Reilly, Man at Arms, etc.

Thanks

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Clarification - Lorenz bayonet and scabbard

James,

Have you examined any of the returns or documenst related to the 104th in the Ohio Historical Society. The A.G. records were a good source for me for some records when I was doing research on the 4th Ohio.

Also, I have a copy of a masters thesis that was written about the 104th OVI. I will look and see if I might find any references in there that may help you.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Clarification - Lorenz bayonet and scabbard

The Lorenz bayonet blade is about 1 inch longer than a springfield or enfield bayonet blade. I don't have an original Springfield scabbard but do have repros in which my original Springfield bayonets fit well. The Lorenz will not fit but half way into these scabbards. The Lorenz 4 sided blade is just too fat and if it did fit inside the scabbard it would be too long. As far an Enfield scabbard, the 4 sided Lorenz will never make it past the 3 side brass triangle throat of the scabbard.

Now to your post. You said 104th OVI had Austrians and then received Enfields. The Enfield bayonet WILL fit into a US made Lorenz scabbard. I do have a two rivet US mfg. Lorenz scabbard which came into my collection with a Springfield bayonet inside it. It is pictured on http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/relics.html

It may be possible that they used the Enfield bayonets in the US arsenal made Austrian scabbards.

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Clarification - Lorenz bayonet and scabbard

Though it is not something they normaly stock, I would contact Lukas Berg at the Quartermaster Stores and ask him to make you up a Lorenz scabbard. He has a great pattern, the construction is excellent, and the materials are first rate. In short, all that make up a great reproduction. He made mine, I am very happy with it.

Hope this helps.

Ivan F. Ingraham

[James Brenner]

Re: Clarification - Lorenz bayonet and scabbard

Thank you all for your responses. I suspect that the 104th was issued US made scabbards for use with the Lorenz bayonets and then used them for the Enfield bayonets a few months later. (I wonder who made the scabbards?) The records for the 104th in the various respositories - National Archives, Ohio Historical Society, and the Western Reserve Historical Society- merely state that the 104th received "scabbards". So far, the pictures I've come across don't show enough detail to be of much use. Gotta keep looking, though. The answer's out there somewhere.

Did Bradley Keefer write the thesis on the 104th? If so, I have a copy.

[Tim Prince]

Re: Clarification - Lorenz bayonet and scabbard

The US government produced 2 different styles of scabbards for use with the cruciform pattern Lorenz bayonet. One style has diamond shaped throat in cross section and the other style has an oval shaped throat. Both were, of course long enough to accommodate the added blade length of the Austrian bayonet versus the US bayonet. Both were of the “2-rivet” pattern, with 2 rivets on the frog. I have not seen any evidence that the leather covered, wooden body Austrian style scabbards were ever used by US troops. Every image that I have seen of a US soldier with a Lorenz has shown a standard “Gaylord” pattern bayonet scabbard (if a scabbard was visible in the image).
I own an original with the diamond shaped throat that I sent to Don Smith at TMDCo. He has produced an excellent reproduction for me, and now has the pattern to produce more.

[Johan Steele]

Lorenz & Colt Revolving Rifle Repro

I was told recently that Dixie Gunworks was offering a repro Lorenz in .54 & a Colt Revolving Rifle repro as well. After searching the site I managed to either miss them or they aren't there. Does anyone know who makes repros of either?