Austrian Lorenz Repop

[trippcor]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

One thing I have noticed with Loyalist Arms, is that they will continue to refine the weapons they offer over time. I have a long land bess that I got from them it is at least the third if not forth version of that weapon. The first one they came out with had several issues which LA was very forth coming about. With each new run though they improved the weapon which is more than I can say of the Italian folks.

I agree it would be nice if they waited till it was closer to perfect but developing new products is costly. Offering the new weapon early, allows for sales to provide capitol to improve the product and also helps to judge interest before spending a lot of money to develop a product that only a few want. This seems to be the normal course of modern business just look at Microsoft.

[ACo.]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Has anyone bothered to ask for a measurement of the outside diameter of the muzzle and compared it to the inside diameter of an original bayonet? How far is the front sight from the muzzle? I agree that the caliber can be considered a problem to a shooter but to a reenactor? Many reenactors use original Springfield M1861s and Enfield P53s and Lorenz rifle muskets that have been reamed smooth (usually to .62 caliber - thats about standard 20 guage) post ACW and are not derided for it so that is really not a problem. If an original bayonet will fit or if a decent repop bayonet is made available, this could be an answer to all of the calls for a Lorenz for those wanting one. Give the company a chance, in my contacts with them they have been very friendly and are interested in doing a good job. My first Lorenz was original and cost me $250 12 years ago. The next cost $450 3 years later. Those days are gone and an original can only be carried at a risk of doing damage to an expensive collector's item that deserves the respect due its history. I say give them a chance and encourage them.

[csabugler]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Hey Tripp, I'm gonna send that site to my old buddy Skip. He was one of the guys who got onto the Lorenz early, way back probably 12 years ago. He's had several. interested to see his opinion. The ranger at the mill befor Chuck wouldn't let Skip carry an original at the Mill for some long forgotten event because he didn't think it was "typical and customary". We have learned otherwise sinse.
Pete

[unclefrank]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

The rifle looks nice. I hear that the wood they use is kinda heavy. Can anyone confirm that.

[Rebbeh]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I sent an email last night at about 11pm, PST to Blair, asking him some basic questions and whatnot. At 9:30am, he sent his reply (that's good service right there!). I for one already have a '42 Springfield, and a '53 Enfield. I have live fired them both, and as fun as the Enfield is to fire, I prefer to fire the '42, simply because it makes a louder pop, is more fun to see the balls travel hither and thither, and is a lot easier to clean and maintain than the rifling of the Enfield. If your going to live fire a Lorenz, then you probably want an accurate calibre. But if your just putting powder down the barrel, what difference does it make at a reenactment? Makes about as much sense as a Confederate with a Henry in my opinion. Anyways, here is the reply from Blair, and I totally agree with him. Muskets are starting to get up there in price. My friend bought his first Euroarms '61 Springfield for $300 dollars new. Now, they sell for over $600. I don't want another $8-900 dollar musket floating around out there that only the well to do can aquire.

*******

Dear Ty,

Good to hear from you and many thanks for the valuable info.

Our Lorenz will not be available in .54 or .58 cal rifled as the barrel
factory does not have the proper equipment
.
If you desire a rifled version, all I can suggest is to contact a
domestic rifle barrel maker and install one of
these barrels into our stock.
The cost of a US made rifled barrel for a Lorenz in .54 or .58 , the
last time I checked, (4-5 years ago), was
about $285.00 US and the wait was approx. 4-6 months.
It would then have to be fitted to the gun as it would not likely be a
drop in fit.
If you were to have a custom made barrel for a Euroarms or Armisport
rifle made, fitting would still be needed.

The Lorenz was basically designed for reenacting and shooting round
ball. It was designed to look accurate and
function well at a reasonable cost.
It was not designed for targeting, so there was no use for rifling.
We hear a lot of complaints that Euroarms and Armisport Enfields are
"not accurate", but how exact does the average
customer require his repro rifle??
It really depends on the individual. Does he require a museum exact
copy, or a good repro. that functions well on
the field?

For the factory to gear up to crank out .54 & 58 rifled barrels, would
cost so much and with the necessary
government permits required, it would not be worth the hassle.
We would have another percussion musket over the $900.00 mark. We might
sell a few, but we would just exclude a lot
of customers in the lower income margin.
I have always held the opinion that Reenacting should not be for the
select few, who are better off financially,
but for anyone.
Having a smooth bored .62 cal barrel is much less expensive, and
brings the Lorenz into the more affordable price
bracket for the average reenactor.
As you probably know, the average Italian percussion rifles are
creeping into the $800.00 - 900.00 range, if you
look at a recent Dixire Gun Works catalog.
Dixies Lorenz, (carbine), for example, is $875.00 and we know that
very few Lorenz, (jaegers), were actually
imported.
Some customers desperate for a Lorenz, have actually bought these
things since there is nothing else available.

The only other option, is to have a Lorenz custom made which would
probably cost over $1800.00 US.

So the more affordable version has a smooth bore barrel, and any custom
or customized version will cost
significantly more.
That's simple economics. We are offering a good repro with a warranty
that looks fine, but has a slightly larger
smooth bore.
We know customers would always prefer a rifled barrel, but that is just
not economically possible at this time for
us nor the customer.

Hope this is helpful Ty; have a great day and thanks for your best
wishes. It's folks like you who keep us going.
Best wishes to you and your fellow reenactors this coming Fall.

Your Servant,
Blair Higgins.

https://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com

-Ty "Tic-Tac" Gladden

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Hallo!

To pick a few... butt stock/wrist/comb area, lock and lock stampings, front sight, ramrod, .62 smoothbore, what appears to be a not fully finished sand-cast breech and bolster, and a teak (??) stock?

IMHO, compare it it the original.
Having said that... sigh... and not comparing Apples and Oranges repro's with repro's-
for $450 it is just as "good appearing" and "useful" as the Italian M1855/61/63 "Springfield " or the Italian P1853 4th Model "Enfield" with all their faults, problems, and errors that we readily and commonly accept and use as is. (and at less money)

Maybe I am doing the moan of the glass half empty, glass half full, thing here. But I did some sommersaults down the basement stairs Monday night breaking up a dog fight- and may have rattled what marbles remain...

Others' mileage may vary...

Curt
So close and yet so far, far away Mess

[Tim Prince]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Curt beat me to it, but you can rule out using an original bayonet (no matter the barrel diameter) due to the fact that the front site is a rectangular profile instead of oval, and placed square on the barrel instead of off-set to accept the helical mortise of the Lorenz bayonet. The biggest plus to their offering is that you may be able to buy some parts from them to restore a Lorenz. With the double strapped front band from a Lorenz selling in the $100-$200 range these days, a decent repro band would be a god send for those looking to rebuild a "fixer-upper" gun. The reality is that you can still get a really good looking original Lorenz that is safe and functional in the $1000-$1200 range and that would be money much better spent than on another "close but no cigar" Civil War reproduction. And as Curt pointed out, that rammer is funky and it would give the gun away as a reproduction from quite a distance. I've probably owned over two dozen Lorenz's over the years and retailed nearly a dozen in the past 2 years. I'm pretty well acquainted with these guns and this one misses the mark considerably. It is about equivalent to those fixed site Indian/Pakistani Enfields that made the rounds of sutler tents a few years ago.

[trippcor]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I got basically the same response Ty did from LA. I agree to some extent but not entirely. I still bet if we push hard enough, we can get a better weapon. Like I said LA continued to improve their Long Land Bess over time as flaws were pointed out to them.

[Feckless]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

All in all, a very commendable effort from Loyalist Arms; and at a price point that will make it a tough (fun?) choice vs. the other Italian offerings.

A couple of comments (with my 862 orig sitting in my lap right now):

- The screws (for the internal lock parts, not the screws that hold the plate itself) are off a little. Mainspring hole on orig much closer to front plate screw hole; and sear screw holes (behind the hammer) are the same size on the orig. The hole directly below the bolster isn't on my orig at all. This is being picky, admittedly, but since we're on the subject.....

- Date stamp is much smaller on the orig, and it would have been nice to get an armoury stamp (Ferlach armoury usually) at the rear of the plate.

- It hard to tell from the pics on Loyalist's website, but original stocks were made of very light colored beechwood (that's what grew in central Europe in those days), and LA's appears to be darker walnut. My orig doesn't have a cheek-piece either, but earlier/larger bore models did, I think.

- Why .62 caliber? I'd be interested in buying, but my original quad bayonets (at .54) wouldn't fit - nice they're making a repop, though. Rifling would certainly up the price, so let's be thankful for what we get for $475 (particularly with the correct octagonal-to-round barrel).

- Last but not least, the middle & front barrel bands appear much closer together on the 862 orig vs. Loyalist's; and the top (swivel) band protrudes forward about 1/2" on its underside (like the bottom band).

It's admittedly easy to point out these things when comparing directly to an orig that LA is probably not trying to copy exactly anyway. Let's give these guys a lot of credit for taking a chance on this. It's been a long time coming.

Wonder what Greg Edington (remember his attempt a few years ago?) thinks of this one. I'd be curious to hear from him, if he's still in this business.

Regards, John Roger

[TKlas]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Gents,

I would agree with everyone that this would be an excellent rifle-musket to reproduce accurately but from the feedback I would agree with Curt and Tim your best bet is to get an original at this time. I own one and so do several members of the Hard Heads both in the 54. and 58. caliber models. As Tripp stated, perhaps if this company keeps refining their product, we may need to re-discuss the possibilities of looking into this in a few years. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Encouraging news for enthusiasts of Austrian Lorenz rifle-muskets in the 54. and 58. caliber models.

Best Regards,

[trippcor]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

John,
That is just the kind of things Loyalist needs to see. It was that kind of feed back they used to improve their Long Land Bess. Make sure you pass contact LA. You might want to include pictures of your orginal to better illustrate your point.

[NC5thCav]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I don't think that we'll see a rifled version, but I would be happy if some of the other faults that Curt and Tim pointed out were corrected. Although bore diameter for reenactors is not a top concern, overall barrel dimensions are. The problems with the front site are some that I would really like to see addressed, especially since the unique bayonet arrangement is one of the things that sets the Lorenz apart. I know it has some major flaws, but at least someone is willing to try.

[ACo.]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Some of the concerns have been addressed. One of the problems pointed out is the rear sight. Ii seems that many people involved in this discussion have a tendency to look at pictures and not read the text, here is a quote on the rear sight:

"Another feature is the front sight. It looks like it is twisted on the barrel
but this shape accommodates the angled groove in the bayonet socket."

Loyalist Arms has used the photographs of their early prototype of their reproduction to illustrate the article, they do realize that the sight is angled for the correct bayonet. Also, keep in mind that the smooth bore in .62 cal does not necesarily mean that the outside diameter is grossly different from the original. It may indeed be the same? And they are comming out with their own repop bayonet.

There has been some concern about the color of the wood and the cheekpiece. The originals were mostly made using beechwood that was stained dark but a few show up in an original unstained state. The lighter color can be considered correct but in many cases it indicates the work of people improperly "restoring" their rifles at some point during the last 140 years and some of the lightened stocks are now taking on the patina of original. At any rate the dark stock is predominantly correct. Too bad they are not using beechwood but it is not economically available to them. And don't worry about the chheck piece on the repop, it is correct and was used on some but certainly not all originals.

The biggest problem in my eyes is the ramrod, it is completely wrong, hopefully they will do something about it but we can expect this to be a major stumbling block since a correctly made brass banded rammer involves some compicated processes. A beautifully correct reproduction can be had from "The Rifle Shoppe" if you want to try them, expect a waite.

Altogether, the reproduction Lorenz from Loyalist arms looks good and, with certain improvements, can be at least as good if not better than any of the Italian pieces. We should encourage them rather than sitting back in our armchairs at our computer keyboards denegrating their efforts. Email them your suggestions. It will never be perfect but it can be acceptable and we will NEVER see one out of Italy.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Posting some pictures for those of you who don't have a Lorenz handy to look at.

The first picture (L to R) shows the ramrod which should have a brass band in the channel in front of the hole. The brass band is missing on this example.

Third picture shows the orientation of the front sight.

The pictures of the lock and stock show the wood actual color which is pretty close to the picture.

The history on this Austrian is that it was brought back from the war by Oren Fletcher of the 11th Pa. Cav. From the OR records Oren most likely picked the rifle up during his travels north from Andersonville to DC area to rejoin his regiment after he was released. It is a .54 cal. and shows very little wear.

[NC5thCav]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Thanks Jim. That appears to be a gorgeous rifle. From what I here, Loyalist is known for listening to customer input, so many of these problems may be fixed in the future.