Austrian Lorenz Repop

[Jim Chochole]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I agree, if we give L.A. a chance and take a look at what they offer- things will indeed get better over time. They are an up-and-coming company just like Pedersoli was at one time. I have tested their P-53 Enfields, and the new M1840 cone-in-barrel and they are a solid piece. The discussions on L.A. have gone from how quality are they to- the authenticity of the shaping of the muskets and rifles. That is a good sign, many reenactors see them as a chance to at least have some competition with the Italians. Competition is a good thing as it works in the best interests of the reenactors and quality products. I have noticed that, in as much as the Indian products are shaped oddly at times, Pedersoli's muskets can be as thick as tree-trunks a times as well. Both companies products, coming out-of-the-box, need work. Often times the question becomes howmuch work, and at what cost to begin with?

Cheers,
Jim Chochole

[TheGrayGhost]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

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[billmatt04]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Altogether, the reproduction Lorenz from Loyalist arms looks good and, with certain improvements, can be at least as good if not better than any of the Italian pieces. We should encourage them rather than sitting back in our armchairs at our computer keyboards denegrating their efforts. Email them your suggestions. It will never be perfect but it can be acceptable and we will NEVER see one out of Italy.

Amen to that.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Amen to that.

While I am supportive of the idea that well-intentioned firms, responsive to customer feedback and intent on improving their product be encouraged to make such improvements, I do not believe that the products themselves should be supported, endorsed, or recommended until they have reached a level of quality and fidelity to originals that meets some minimum standard.

[billmatt04]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

While I am supportive of the idea that well-intentioned firms, responsive to customer feedback and intent on improving their product be encouraged to make such improvements, I do not believe that the products themselves should be supported, endorsed, or recommended until they have reached a level of quality and fidelity to originals that meets some minimum standard.

What I was referring to is a proactive effort to get the problems corrected rather than sitting back and complaining. I applaud the efforts of those who are communicating with the manufacturers to produce a better quality weapon. You and I appear to be in complete agreement.

Best,

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

What I was referring to is a proactive effort to get the problems corrected rather than sitting back and complaining. I applaud the efforts of those who are communicating with the manufacturers to produce a better quality weapon. You and I appear to be in complete agreement.

Best,

Cool. I just hope to see a better mousetrap before we beat a path to anyone's door. Good efforts and intentions are great, but results are all that matter.

[ACo.]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

While I am supportive of the idea that well-intentioned firms, responsive to customer feedback and intent on improving their product be encouraged to make such improvements, I do not believe that the products themselves should be supported, endorsed, or recommended until they have reached a level of quality and fidelity to originals that meets some minimum standard.

That is my intent as well so it is good to see that you agree. We have to remember that development of a new product for market is an expensive proposition and any intelligent company will pull the plug after a short run if there is no interest in a product. For years there has been a clamor on the part of reenactors for a reasonably accurate copy of the Lorenz, be it the M1854 or the M1862 so here is our chance for input from the ground floor. At best they MAY sell as many as 1000 units so they need to know that there is interest. When contacting them, let them know that there are those that want this, make suggestions and observations and ask for updates on the progress. Maybe they can do a mailing list? Support them in this and for the first time you may have some say in what you have to use.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

That is my intent as well so it is good to see that you agree. We have to remember that development of a new product for market is an expensive proposition and any intelligent company will pull the plug after a short run if there is no interest in a product. For years there has been a clamor on the part of reenactors for a reasonably accurate copy of the Lorenz, be it the M1854 or the M1862 so here is our chance for input from the ground floor. At best they MAY sell as many as 1000 units so they need to know that there is interest. When contacting them, let them know that there are those that want this, make suggestions and observations and ask for updates on the progress. Maybe they can do a mailing list? Support them in this and for the first time you may have some say in what you have to use.

I agree with you 100% and am glad there are good folks working with to get them good information. Some of the earlier posts stating that their Lorenz "looked really good" just didn't match what my eyes saw when looking at photos of their product.

Thanks!

[trippcor]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Folks,
I have emailed a bit more with LA. The pictures they have posted are just of the prototype and not the final product so now is the best time to contact them with any issues you may see. MAybe they would be willing to allow one of our AC gun experts review one of their final products. They did allow some respected individuals in the Rev War Campaigner community to review their Long Land Bess.

[Jim Chochole]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

I have to agree with Mr. Wickett 100%, it is easy to sit back and critique about something that has just arrived. Before you kill a product as it is not to your liking- try and change or at least investigate the accuracy and be an agent for good. The process of making a weapon such as the Lorenz requires a chunk of change and access to many originals. heck to properly creat a weapon one has to destroy fully one whole weapon to "mic" the parts and get the correct thicknesses and tolerances. Let's try and work with this company and maybe get something out of it better tahn what is currently available.

Cheers,
Jim Chochole

[trippcor]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Folks,
Loyalist Arms has read this thread and contacted me with a very postive response. They were not aware that they could post as well and have asked me to post this for them.

From Loyalist Arms:
I do appreciate all the input from the people on the board, and although some of it seems a little premature and harsh, it is all constructive criticism. I actually put the web page together and forgot to mention that this one pictured, was the prototype. My apologizes for any confusion this has caused.

The front sight sight is already being fixed. The prototype had a square block front sight, even though we had supplied one that was accurate. In any case, it will be different on the finished product. Perhaps the factory thought that they were correcting a mistake that we had made. After all, the original front sight is indeed odd looking. The rammer is not correct, but thanks to one of your contributors, I now have a nice close up of one.

We had no original to copy. You see, being in Canada, Lorenz rifles are extremely rare. We never had a civil war that needed vast numbers of European guns to be imported. I think our first attempt wasn't too bad.

Stock color is irrelevant as a customer can have his stock in any color he wants, even painted black if he so chooses.. We do the finishing work here in our shop. The stock is made from ROSEWOOD, which is denser than walnut. Anyone acquainted with fine furniture or musical instruments knows Rosewood is an excellent, tough, (and expensive),wood. It is rather light until we stain it with the best stain on the market, "Laurel Mountain Forge" made in the USA. These guns are partially completed overseas, and then we do the detailing here in our shop.

The barrel on the prototype measures .789 at the end of the muzzle and .812 at the end of the front band, behind the sight. Is this somewhat close to the originals?? I do know that the Lorenz rifles were all hand fitted with varying degrees of fit & finish, and quality for that matter. I would be interested in getting exact micrometer measurements on barrel dimensions of say 5-10 of them to see if they all match. In any case, we hope soon to have the bayonet available, (as soon as we can get our hands on an original to copy).
Is it that important to fit an original bayonet on a repro gun ? How many reenactors have original bayonets to fit on the repro anyway? I had to ask this question. I hope I don't offend anyone, but it has me stumped.

Can anyone there give me the exact measurement between the lower end of the rammer tube of the front band and the front of the middle band? It would be most appreciated.

If any of the folks on the forum wants to criticize our efforts, how about they help us get this project more accurate by supplying a bayonet to copy??
We will give the individual supplying the bayonet a repro. replacement bayonet for free, up to five more bayonets at our cost, a discount of $200.00 on a production Lorenz, and honorable mention on our website for their assistance. They can have their original bayonet back eventually**.

**One thing I have to be honest about;
If we send a bayonet overseas, there is always a possibility of loss or damage, so this does take some risk on their part. I just want to be up front about this.

We always post pics of our prototypes so we can get useful feedback on them. It's customers feedback that helps us produce a decent product, and if we can achieve maybe a 85%+ correct gun, we will be doing well by most repro. standards I believe.

Another question I have is if there were different style hammers used on the Lorenz muskets ?? We have 2 examples here, (just hammers, not the guns).
We do not have a complete gun to copy, just parts and pictures and a few specs. It's been quite a challenge as you can imagine.

So, the rest is up to you folks. We are doing this all for our fine US customers.
Do you really want a Lorenz? We need your help. How often do reenactors get some say in the products they purchase?? Now's your chance.....
How about helping us get this thing developed as accurately and as feasible as possible?

Looking forward to your replies.
Best Wishes,

Your Servant,
Blair Higgins.

https://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com

[Will Eichler]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Gents,

I called Blair just as he hit the send button on the email to Trip. Seems we have a chance to very positively infleuence the final product! Do send the info along. He really wants our help.

I've got a bayonet on the way for Blair. It should be here next week. If is doesn't work out, I'll be sure to let you all know so someone else can take him up on the deal.

Best to all,

Will

[coastaltrash]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Tripp,
The only advice I would pass them is to contact Tim Prince. As far as a bayonet, Tim HAD one on his site http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/sh...cat=256&page=1

and I'm sure could get another one. If I were ever in the market for a lorenz (original) he is who I would turn to, he is also the person I had examine my Dad's original Lorenz that was cut down from the original size. Now I'll step back in line, and wait like the rest of us.

[NC5thCav]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Now THAT is what I call customer service.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Austrian Lorenz Repop

Hallol!

Three Cheers and a Tiger!

Now that is infinitely BETTER than anything the Italians have offered "
"us" in almost fifty years!

On another note, IMHO the striving to have reproductions (of any manner of article of clothing, item or gear, or weapon, etc.) compared and favorably comparing to originals is not "criticism."
It is rather, IMHO, an expression of the striving toward and the standards for, greater "authenticity" in our impressions and persona. In recent decades it has fueled the movement toward "better" clothing, gear, and weapons- as well as those segments of the Civil War Community that embrace them.

While I have never paid them, I do appreciate the effort and finanical costs of bringing new clothing, gear, and arms out for "me" to use.
However, I do not appreciate the business theory or business necessities that have allowed the "Italians" to produce inferior products. But I do not blame the Italians for a successful business practice, I blame "us" for continually buying what the "Italians" offer in large enough numbers to act as a disincentive for change or product improvement for over thirty years.

But it is in the Nature of the Authentic Campaigner Beast to compare reproductions against the original they claim to reproduce/copy/imitiate.
As Odysseus in TROY says, "It's no insult to say that a dead man is dead."

If I had not have sold off my CW collection to finance my daughter's college education in this state, I would have sent a "Lorenz" to be copied if I thought or known it would have, could have, had a positive effect on a reproduction.

I have no idea how many "Lorenz's" the CW Commuity market will purchase, but think it a risky small number to weigh against development and production costs (even in India or Pakistan, etc.,). And in a CW hobby where we have been using "authenticity challenged" Italian offerings for decades, the rantings and ravings, overly critical or not- of the right (no pun intended) half of the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm...
I applaud Mr. Higgins desire and effort to bring interesting, new and different, affordable 18th and 19th century firearms to the Blackpowder Community. I do.
And doubly applaud and commend his responsiveness, interest, and effort to do a good job of things!

Curt
Heretic