Austrian Lorenz Repop

[Charles Heath]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Excellent suggestion, Paul, and enough people complained about a certain "assinine remark" to warrant the edit button.

[trippcor]

Update on Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz

Loyalist Arms has recieved their fist batch of production run Lorenz Muskets. I have requested pictures which Loyalist Arms says they will send shortly. I will post them when I get them. LA however has indicated they made the following changes:

1. Ramrod has been updated with the brass band
2. Repositioned the 2 front barrel bands.

They are still working on the bayonet but expect to have it availible in a couple of months.

[trippcor]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I have received a picture from Loyalist Arms of the new production rammer they will include with their new Lorenz. It looks much better to me but I am no expert. I am posting it here for you to make your own evaluation. They also have received a double head eagle stamp for the lock plate.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Rammer: Looks a little closer, but not quite there yet.
Repositioned Bands: Good move! Much better.

I think there are some other deficiencies that bear mentioning. In an earlier post, someone stated that the LA Lorenz looked like a reworked '63 Springfield. A large part of this observation stems from the fact that the wrist of the stock is quite long, as with a '55/'61/'63 springfield. This, combined with the hammer shape, make the piece look very "un-Lorenz-like".

Also, I think using beach (or is it birch???) as was used in the originals would help the appearance a great deal. It might be cheaper, too!

What baffles me is this:
Rather than fixing issues piece-meal, why note buy a high-condition Lorenz and "just copy it"? They are not hard to find. Tim Prince has one right now for less than $1700, a small investment when compared to the overall cost of producing these things.

I hope they keep working on perfecting it. I am bothered much less by the smooth bore than by other deficiencies.

Thanks!

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Beech. The M-1854 Lorenz was generally stocked in beechwood, which is about 30% harder than walnut. The stocks were also "cast off" slightly to help with the line of sight for a soldier facing the target in the European fashion. See the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium 2nd Edition (2007) p.97, which has a pretty good article on the Lorenz.

The use of beechwood instead of walnut in military rifle stocks was common for European arms. British Enfields are sometimes found in beechwood dyed to mimic the color of walnut. Why would this be the case?

To address that, and your question as to why products are brought to market with mistakes that end up being fixed (or not) "piecemeal"...At the risk of repeating myself see The Civil War Musket, A Handbook for Historical Accuracy (2006) p. 144... "in the battle between historical accuracy and economics the safe bet is on economics."

[Kiev Thomason]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I have received a picture from Loyalist Arms of the new production rammer they will include with their new Lorenz. It looks much better to me but I am no expert. I am posting it here for you to make your own evaluation. They also have received a double head eagle stamp for the lock plate.

They also are working on the bayonets and scabbards is what the e mail I got two days ago stated.They did not say who was making them but said they will be done soon.I have no idea which scabbard though.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Beech. The M-1854 Lorenz was generally stocked in beechwood, which is about 30% harder than walnut. The stocks were also "cast off" slightly to help with the line of sight for a soldier facing the target in the European fashion. See the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium 2nd Edition (2007) p.97, which has a pretty good article on the Lorenz.

The use of beechwood instead of walnut in military rifle stocks was common for European arms. British Enfields are sometimes found in beechwood dyed to mimic the color of walnut. Why would this be the case?

To address that, and your question as to why products are brought to market with mistakes that end up being fixed (or not) "piecemeal"...At the risk of repeating myself see The Civil War Musket, A Handbook for Historical Accuracy (2006) p. 144... "in the battle between historical accuracy and economics the safe bet is on economics."

Craig,
I can't buy these books right now or I'll ruin my family's gift lists for Fathers Day, birthday, and Christmas!! :tounge_sm

[Jimmayo]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Here are some poor photos of

1. An original ramrod that has lost the brass band
2. The same original ramrod along side a dug one with the brass band.
3 The front end of the rifle.

As Mr. Wickett said in an earlier post, the rammer is a lot better but not quite there yet. It still needs a little tweeking.

Anybody compared the feel of the repro to an original?

IMO this rifle appears to be as good a reproduction now as some of the Enfields on the market that have been out long enough to have been improved but haven't.

[58 lorenz]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I ordered one of these from Loyalist back in November, and now they have informed me that they are getting it ready to ship to me. When it comes, I will be sure to post photos of it next to my original Lorenz,so that interested people can get a good idea of what it really looks like,and exactly how it compares to an original.





Doug Price

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Jim Mayo hit it right on the head. Considering the current options and comparing the repro M-1854 Lorenz to the modern Italian made P-53 Enfields & US Model 1861s, it is probably in the same ball park. That may be "damning by faint praise", but at least an option now exists for the those portraying enlisted men on both sides that were historically issued the M-1854 Lorenz.

The weight is pretty much dead-on with the original. The Austrian lb was called pfunden and it was lighter than the American lb. In US units of measure the Lorenz is about 8 lbs and a couple ounces according to the Austrian manual “Osterrichische Infanterie - Feurgewehr, Wien, 1857.” A proto-type version of the Loyalist Arms M-1854 Lorenz was reviewed for the Watchdog column in "Camp Chase Gazette" earlier this year, it was just about identical in weight.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Still working on getting my own Lorenz into production, Craig. Just can't seem to catch a break. The Liege is first on my list, just to cut my teeth on, but as soon as I get that one in production the Lorenz is next. I'm having to build a barrel making machine to allow me to do the barrel right though. Nobody is willing to do it right.

Todd Watts

[ACo.]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Still working on getting my own Lorenz into production, Craig. Just can't seem to catch a break. The Liege is first on my list, just to cut my teeth on, but as soon as I get that one in production the Lorenz is next. I'm having to build a barrel making machine to allow me to do the barrel right though. Nobody is willing to do it right.

Todd Watts

Have you tried Bobby Hoyt, Colerain Barrels or Ed Rayl? All of them can do it and do it right using breech castings from TRS. None better. My last barrel came from Colerain, it is a .69 smoothbore barrel for a M1795 flint musket I am building and it is about as perfect a reproduction as you can find - no extra metal (that means the weight is right) and the dimensions are as exact as you can expect from a gun that originally had so much variation in manufacture. Give any or all of them a call and tell them exactly what you want, expect a waite for delivery (could be 6 months to two years) but you will be pleased.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

No, it is the smaller parts I am needing a reliable and cheap source for. The barrel and stock and assembly of the gun will be my job, but I don't have time to make the smaller parts as well. I cannot locate anyone in the States or even Canada willing to do this cost-effectively. I have tried Mexico, Brazil, Peru, China, and India as well. My best bet will be India, but so far no bites there either.

Whittaker will be making my Liege barrels and he is ready to go but is on hold until I get small parts made. I've been on this process with Jerry Smith of The Blockade Runner now for over a year and we're having trouble with this 1 aspect.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Todd the Gunsmith:
I am anxious to see what the "Liege" musket comes out like, as smoothbores are still woefully under-represented in the hobby at virtually all events. I told you the M-1854 Lorenz project would be a barrel of monkeys. This has been tried before.

Greg Eddington did a M-1854 Lorenz project about ten years ago that never really got off the ground due to the high cost. I understand that a grand total of about one (1) finished M-1854 Lorenz repro resulted from that venture. However, the "Rifle Shoppe" still lists Lorenz parts (or at least rough castings) on their website. Expect very rough work, high cost and extreme delays if you go that route. Their website is www.therifleshoppe.com/(698).htm. IE: A complete M-1854 assembled lock from Rifle Shoppe is $195, stock is $225, barrel is $250 and the ramrod is $40. You still need the bands, trigger, sights, screws, etc. Two parts, the barrel and stock alone, are the full finished cost of the Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz.

It might be better to "de-farb" the Loyalist Arms M-1854 Lorenz, like you do with the Italian made repro Enfields, at least in terms of the final cost. The smoothbore barrel is the main point of contention on the current repro Lorenz, the other parts can be re-shaped or re-contoured to be very close to originals.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Yes, I really have a bug to do a pre-defarbed Liege. I'll do it smooth bore at least at first, but the one Jerry has is rifled so I might try those just for kicks. I want to do a real top-quality Lorenz of course but also have my eye on an .80" Pottsdam. Something about .80" just tickles my fancy!:D
Todd