Austrian Lorenz Repop

[ACo.]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Is there any historical documentation that the Austrian scabbard, SCABBARD, was ever used in the American Civil War? I have seen many documented Lorenz muskets and bayonets, but scabbards?
It is my understanding that the scabbards, as pictured in above posted photo, came to these shores after the fall of the Soviet Bloc when a great number were discovered in an eastern European warehouse.
Steve Sullivan
CWPT
Co. Mil. Hist.

As a kid in the 1950s I remember seeing a wooden scabbard with remnants of the leather covering on a Lorenz bayonet in an old collection dating from the late 19th Century. I also have an Austrian scabbard tip (metal) that was dug near Fredericksburg, Va. I will try to get a usable photo posted. Dug Austrian scabbard throats also show up occasionally. So yes, in my opinion, they were used, I don't think there is any doubt about it and have never seen a collector that doubted it but we do seem to be lacking in photographic documentation. Has anyone ever seen a period image of a Lorenz scabbard being worn?

Now, as far as the urban legend that these came out of a warehouse in the nebulous "Eastern Europe", I doubt it but I suppose some could be coming out of sections of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Lorenz bayonet was in use as late as WW1 when the M1854/67 Wanzl (a trapdoor conversion of the M1854 Lorenz) saw its last use in the hands of rear echelon troops of the A-H Empire. Even Imperial Germany used some of the scabbards when they did ersatz conversions of of the 54 bayonet during the Great War for their own use (see "German Bayonets, Vol. III" by Anthony Carter) and some from one of these sources could be around in small quantities but to say that all showing up now were recently found is probably stretching it a bit.

[militiaman1835]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I am wondering how rare are the nipple wrench/musket tools issued with the Lorenz? Only ones I have seen are dug examples? Are they as rare and expensive as the bayonets? JIM HENSLEY

[58 lorenz]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

I found the combination tool for the Lorenz (in decent,undug condition) on eBay a few years ago for a reasonable amount-I can't remember, but it was somewhere around $25. I paid more for the bayonet than I paid for my Lorenz-$250, in good condition, in a nice,solid US pattern scabbard. I bought the Lorenz about 4 years ago at a local gunshow for $200. The seller was off in a corner, and no one was bothering to see what he had.



Doug Price

[rebelfirefighter07]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Are there any quality reproductions made of the combination tool??

Don't forget to sign your name to your posts. - CH

[Kevin Hall]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I found the combination tool for the Lorenz (in decent,undug condition) on eBay a few years ago for a reasonable amount-I can't remember, but it was somewhere around $25. I paid more for the bayonet than I paid for my Lorenz-$250, in good condition, in a nice,solid US pattern scabbard. I bought the Lorenz about 4 years ago at a local gunshow for $200. The seller was off in a corner, and no one was bothering to see what he had.



Doug Price



I have found this to be true with most musket / rifle tools especially here in the west. It pays to look in those old coffee cans at the antique and gun shows. I picked up a hand full of original worms for a quarter a piece two years ago.

Kevin Hall

[csuniforms]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!-Tools and scabbards

Hello,
Last time I was in Lodgewood Mfg. in Whitewater Wisconsin they had both the Austrian wooden scabbard and the tool. I dont know how many wooden scabbards came in with the rifles, but I do know they modified convential scabbards to take the Austrian Bayonet.

As to the gun not looking new for a 2007 reenacatment. When they received the firearms they were already 7 years old and many were used on campaign in Italy-- So I am sure they looked used, not new-- all bright and shiny-- and needed a little polishing and stock treatment.-- Same goes for the Enfields-- England shipped out the older models not the new ones-- These were used also and not bright and shiny when issued.-- Lots of notes on this in the WTG coming out. {Wearing the Gray}.

Tom Arliskas
Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Tom is right, a number of Lorenz M-1854s were "seasoned" by participation in various European campaigns, refurbished and sold off as excess by the Austrian government when the replacement M-1862s were produced (for the Austrian Army). They would look like seven year old refurbished arms. Not new, but not 150 years old either. Other M-1854s were produced "new" on commercial contract. These would look "new". Wearing the Gray will have a section in it that does the Civil War-era Lorenz, which was produced in several versions and other CS used weapons justice. The folks involved in producing those chapters recognize the issuance of Confederate infantry arms went well beyond the three band rifle-muskets that are available as reproductions for our hobby.

To summarize for the use of the current "Lorenz" the Watchdog standard is a sensible one. Seek the "best possible solution", as of this writing, that would be a "put together". In other words, a rifle-musket produced from original disassociated parts, filling in with as few quality reproduction parts as possible. You could produce a very decent Lorenz for enactment of Civil War battles and LHs that way vs de-farbing the Loyalist Arms version. You would have a better weapon and be money ahead.

Lodgewood Mfg is of course a good source for Lorenz bayonets, scabbards and other parts if you have deep pockets.

[militiaman1835]

Austrian lorenz parts??

I have located a decent condition lorenz but it is missing the following parts: middle band & swivel, lock plate screw, rear sight, one band spring. I know rifle shoppe has repro parts, S & S firearms, Dixie Gun Works, Lodgewood, and ebay..but does anyone know of a dealer who might have original parts? Would a Good/VG condition lorenz missing these parts be worth $750? JIM HENSLEY

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Austrian lorenz parts??

Jim
Is it a M-1854 Lorenz? If so, depends on the condition of the stock and the barrel. Any riflling remaining in the bore? External or internal pitting around the bolster? Does the lock hold at half cock and function crisply? How is the wood? The Lorenz was prone to crack through the wrist near the comb. Will the cone come out of the bolster? Any bend in the barrel? Use a bore light and look for dark spots. The "Yankee Trash" Lorenz made up of junked musket parts and later (non-US Civil War provenance) M-1862s often pop up in this price range. You don't want one of those.

Lodgewood and S & S often have original parts and Dixie does "sometimes", if not you can order Rifle Shoppe repros which are very rough castings, and expect a six week to six month delay at that. And don't be surprised if quite a bit of fitting may be required. Patience may be needed because the Austrian M-1854s were handmade rifles with some variation in the parts.

Its not a "steal" but for the useable parts you are getting, $750 seems reasonable, especially if the stock, remaining hardware and barrel are G to VG. This kind of find has the makings of a nice "put together". I like this kind of project myself, it can keep you happily amused for many moons, or if you are lucky come together fairly fast.

[ACo.]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!-Tools and scabbards

Hello,
"... Same goes for the Enfields-- England shipped out the older models not the new ones-- These were used also and not bright and shiny when issued.-- Lots of notes on this in the WTG coming out. {Wearing the Gray}.

Tom Arliskas
Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown.

Tom, I agree with most of what you say about the Lorenz, many, if not most were used to one extent or another but I'm sure that they may have been recondition by Austro-Hungarian armorers when put in storage after issue and before sale, some however may not have been and went out in used but fully functioning condition.

The .577 Enfield family of arms, however, are another story. Enfields (to use the generic term) sold to the CS, US or state governments or speculators were new guns were they not? The British government did not sell to either party in our squabble, to have done so would have put the British nation in an uncomfortable spot, giving the appearance of taking sides which they were careful not to do in any hard and firm way. So, no guns with government property marks ,whether made by the government or contractors in London, Birmingham, Belgium or even Windsor, Vermont ever made it to our shores before the end of the War, they had plenty of other places throughout the British Empire to send their used equipment, not to mention storage for war reserves. All American used British pattern rifle muskets were made by Birmingham or London contractors with a smattering of Belgian and some of the Windsor made guns that the British did not take when the contract was cancelled. So, while the London Armory did make interchangeable guns equal to the Enfield product on contract for the British Government, they were able, after completing those contracts, to make guns for use here. All that being said, some obsolete pattern muskets (P39 and P42) as well as early rifle muskets (P51) may have been sent here after being declared surplus and sold to "the trade" who then moved them to interested parties anywhere. Sorry to ramble, I am interested to know if I may have missed something.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

Some (small number) of commercial P-53 with British government markings definitely have US Civil War provenance. Post Crimean War-era (type II) Enfields with government marks were refurbished and sold off into the gun trade as updated P-53 models were produced. See previous post by Tim Prince titled "Never Say Never about Enfields" for a good example of one of those type IIs with a Sinclair Hamilton inspection mark.

In The Civil War Musket, (Watchdog Publications 2006 p. 28 footnote # 9) it mentions that there are several LACs existing with Brit government markings, including the V.R under the crown that all LACs seem to have and govt barrel proofs, broad arrow, etc with confirmed Confederate Civil War provenance. One was closely inspected doing the research for the book. It was issued to a soldier in Georgia, and the rack numbers match up with invoices from one of the first blockade runners to land in Savannah back in 1861.

These are, of course, exceptions to the rule.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Austrian lorenz parts??

Jim,

The Lorenzes were running $575-650 just eight or nine years ago in slightly better condition. Craig's suggestion about Lodgewood is excellent, and to take it one step further -- if you can get to a CW show or other venue where they are set up with parts and minor tools to get the job done, you can enjoy picking through a few items, and working on the spot with them to get the piece back in order. Should it prove to be less than desirable for firing, then you still have a nice wallhanger.

[trippcor]

Re: Austrian lorenz parts??

You might want to contact Tim Prince with College Hill Arsenal. Look in the Approved Vendors link for his contact info.

[James Brenner]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

In the for what it's worth column ... The 104th OVI received 940 Lorenz muskets when they mustered in at Camp Massillon in August 1862. Records in the NA suggest that the muskets were real beaters. It may be that they had previously been issued to a lower numbered regiment earlier in the war and were being reissued, and were that much worse for wear. Regardless, COL Reilly petitioned General Q.A.Gilmore in October 1862 to go to Ohio to exchange the muskets. Gilmore endorsed Reilly's request with the following comment, "I have carefully inspected the arms within referred to and have found them of inferior quality, many of them being damaged by loss of sights, cocks, etc., also deficient on account of the weakness of the main springs and an imperfect connection from the tube (cone?) to the bore, to such an extent that about 33 per cent are unfit for service. I believe Colonel Reilly can procure the exchange desired if permitted to make application in person."

Reilly did not get to go. His request was denied with this notation: "Respectfully returned with the information that there are no arms at Columbus, Ohio; that the Commanding General will furnish the first that are to be had; and that the leave of absence cannot be granted."

It all worked out, though. The 104th received Enfields in mid-November.

[militiaman1835]

Re: Loyalist Arms 1854 Lorenz Is here!

The Rifle Shoppe has the repro worms, musket tool, bayonet, cleaning jag, and ball puller listed in their parts list for sale. Jim Hensley