Provost

[KeystoneGuard]

Re: Provost

To all:

I apologzie, I should have listed the duties right off the cuff. The following duties are for at reenactments, if one would like to know the actual duties you would have to read Kautz's manual and also the Laws of War.

Duties for reenactment provosts:

1. Ensure safety and security at all events
2. Protect camp during drill
3. Protect General Officer's during battle
4. Act as a liaison between corp, division, brigade, regimental, and company
5. Serve living history functions: i.e. guard duty, assist in court martials, and much much more.
6. Liaison between Emergency crews (i.e. police, ems, fire)

The position of Provost is a very loose one. It is very hard to find documentation about exactly what they did, because nobody really liked them (nothing has changed since then in reenactments or modern military).

Unfortunaley some groups who use provosts, have given the position a bad name by making them farbi nazi's (excuse the term nazi, I do not want to offend anyone for lack of a better term).

During my time as Provost Marshal, I have helped conduct actual "real" searches for lost/stolen items (its a shame that things like this actually do happen and this time it was one of our own that stole the equipment). Our provost department is able to perform this service because we have folks who are police officers in real life or folks with degrees in Criminal Justice. I hope this explains a little more.

I understand there are people in our hobby who have no time for provosts and I am sorry they feel like this, unfortunatley those are the people who have had bad experiences with them (probably event personnel who aren't reenactors but posing as them for the event or reenactors on a power trip that need to be knocked down a peg or two).

Thank you gentlemen

Andre Wagner, Captain
Provost Marshal

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Provost

1. Ensure safety and security at all events
2. Protect camp during drill

Someone has to do it, as a modern task. How are Nos. 1 and 2 different? These could also be done by a decently-organized and -led camp police guard.


3. Protect General Officer's during battle

As in, bodyguards? During battle, shouldn't the provost guard instead handle prisoners?

4. Act as a liaison between corp, division, brigade, regimental, and company

This is something I'm not understanding at all. Liason-type duties are not the purview of the provost guard but, rather, those of the commanding officers and the Officer of the Day (regimental level), Field Officer of the Day (brigade level), and General Officer of the Day (division level).

5. Serve living history functions: i.e. guard duty, assist in court martials, and much much more.

Is this similar to Nos. 1 and 2? Also, does the organization use camp police guard details?

6. Liaison between Emergency crews (i.e. police, ems, fire)

Real-life necessary duties, although this also strikes me as possibly being better handled by the organization's Officer of the Day.

None of these comments are intended in a poor vein; rather, to contrast how a reenactor group views the duties of the provost and how period military structure handled them. Admittedly, camp security and having someone reliable to interface with modern services are vital roles that probably should not rotate from one (possibly half-informed) officer to the next.

[KeystoneGuard]

Re: Provost

1. Ensure safety and security at all events
2. Protect camp during drill

Someone has to do it, as a modern task. How are Nos. 1 and 2 different? These could also be done by a decently-organized and -led camp police guard.


3. Protect General Officer's during battle

As in, bodyguards? During battle, shouldn't the provost guard instead handle prisoners?

4. Act as a liaison between corp, division, brigade, regimental, and company

This is something I'm not understanding at all. Liason-type duties are not the purview of the provost guard but, rather, those of the commanding officers and the Officer of the Day (regimental level), Field Officer of the Day (brigade level), and General Officer of the Day (division level).

5. Serve living history functions: i.e. guard duty, assist in court martials, and much much more.

Is this similar to Nos. 1 and 2? Also, does the organization use camp police guard details?

6. Liaison between Emergency crews (i.e. police, ems, fire)

Real-life necessary duties, although this also strikes me as possibly being better handled by the organization's Officer of the Day.

None of these comments are intended in a poor vein; rather, to contrast how a reenactor group views the duties of the provost and how period military structure handled them. Admittedly, camp security and having someone reliable to interface with modern services are vital roles that probably should not rotate from one (possibly half-informed) officer to the next.

Kevin,

I have to agree with you in the fact that the liaison business should be handled by the officer of the day or Chief of Staff, unfortunatley trying to keep these important gentlemen in camp for and know where they are is another story. I also agree that the Police Guard should do there part but trying to rouse men for the job is very difficult so we take care of the duties. We do protect the General(s) and his staff and also take care of prisoners, stragglers, protect the flanks when necessary and so on. We are a "jack of all trades" company eventhough these duties would not have necessarily been performed by the provost guard however the position as I stated before is a reenactorism (for lack of better term). It would not be needed but is helpful at times. It is my wish that no one has to deal with the provost's I've dealt with in the past. We all have seen them, the ones who think just because they have a badge (the badge isn't 100% authentic although one can be found in Echoes, but that topic opens another can of worms), means they are the greatest thing since Hardtack, ha ha. I to0 do not want any of my comments taken in vein either, every group is different as you stated and that is what keeps our hobby interesting.

I remain your humble servant,

Andre Wagner, Captain
Provost Marshal

[SCTiger]

Re: Provost

I hate to throw cold water on any good discussion about the functioning of period military life, but Kevin has a good point about the necessity of a PM within the scope of the scenario or the event. Many events don't need a provost anymore than they need a train conductor.

This is the point where specialty impressions need more in the way of support, inclusions, occupation and planning within the group. In truth, most units can't even find honest work for their officers, sergeants, quartermasters, corporals, adjutants, teamsters, corpsmen, mechanics, laborers and sometimes the civilians too. So without proper period employment (PPE), the specialty impressionist will either: A) sit around camp or B) take on some modern duties to justify their existence.

This isn't to say that the role of the PM wouldn't be appreciated if it was utilized correctly, I am just stating that their are many common Army duties that aren't being mastered, lets get those up and running first, before we have 5-20 provost marshals attending an event that has no functioning headquarters or company level offices.

Courier is a very useful and needed role.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Provost

I've yet to attend a Campaigner event at which Provosts were represented (or for that matter... any rank above Colonel... and this was only once.... the Federal Commander at Rich Mtn).

Perhaps it's the peculiarity of our end of the Hobby, but Camp Guards, duties of the Officer of the Guard and Officer of the Day, etc. have always been rigidly adhered to, with these men working hard, and always being present.

At big (often called) National Events, I can see where some of the Duties as listed previously would need to be consolidated into a select few people. At events of such size with multitudes of spectators with quadruple digit participants, such a core group performing these duties are indispensable.

But I must ask.... at Campaigner events, shouldn't we concern ourselves more with what the duties of the Provost are, as detailed in the period references, vice what modern (dare I say it) large Mainstream organizations have their Provosts do at the Mega Events?

[KeystoneGuard]

Re: Provost

Gentlemen,

In an attempt to prevent this discussion from turning into a civil war of its own (between mainstreamers and campaigners), I vote we lay this topic to rest. We have beat it to death over what looks to me a 3 - 4 year period. It is obvious that none of us really know what the provost's did. We have somewhat of an idea but not exactly. We also all agree that they are not needed at Campaigner events (I agree to this) and that we all agree that other positions (like couriers, which I've done in the past) are more of a necessity than PG's.

Your servant,
Andre Wagner, Captain
Provost Marshal

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Provost

I have to agree with you in the fact that the liaison business should be handled by the officer of the day or Chief of Staff, unfortunatley trying to keep these important gentlemen in camp for and know where they are is another story.

That I'm aware of, Civil War division commanders did not have a "chief of staff" and I believe that position was at the field-army level and above.

The problem of an Officer of the Day or higher rank deserting their commands and not telling anyone where they are going, and for how long, is pandemic in most reenactor circles and, to me, implies not just a lack of basic leadership ability, but complete lack of understanding of leadership concepts.

We do protect the General(s) and his staff and also take care of prisoners, stragglers, protect the flanks when necessary and so on.

For the sake of discussion...

The divisional or brigade staff should be doing their jobs during a "battle", including communicating with subordinate units and higher authority, and other functions of a brigadier's staff.

Regarding having a provost detail guard the flanks of a military command, I've never heard of such a thing being done in practice in the Civil War. Flanks were guarded by skirmishers, cavalry videttes, or anchored on some geographic feature like a stream, or (sometimes) merely "left in the air". During a battle, the provost guard was usually too busy corraling prisoners to deal with other tasks. It may be worth it to bring up to your commander why some infantry companies or platoons are not being detailed to guard the flanks of the command.

That I understand, provost marshals were used at the brigade level and above and, at the brigade level, were usually junion field officers (majors and lieutenant colonels). One of my favorite brigades of the war, early in its service (late 1862) had about 3,000 men among four regiments, and its provost marshal at the time was the lieutenant colonel of one of the regiments who had as his provost guard two companies (about 160 men and officers). That's about five percent of the command. Among this brigade, I've seen no documentation of the provost marshal or the provost guard wearing or poessessing any type of distinctive "sheriff's badge" like one often sees at many reenactments (one event in my region has the "provost marhals" wearing red armbands that say either "PM" or "PG"--interpret those acronyms as you will, because these guys aren't doing anything that even faintly resembles period provost marshal/guard duties, and that includes the reenactor PM/PG's typical heavy drinking).

What I'm not clear on is just what the provost guard of a brigade did. POWs from a battle were usually turned over to the division (and higher) provost marshal--certainly brigade level provosts didn't lead POWs far to the rear--and the camp police guard could typically handle disturbances in the camp and virtually always handled camp security. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually found out that brigade-level provost guard details were rare.

As for an earlier post that seemed to imply that provost duty was disliked by the men, I've seen period letters and memoirs from men detailed to provost duty for months at a time and they seemed to love it, except for the separation from their comrades in their home regiment. The duty was regarded as light, and the hours somewhat regular compared to being on a picket line and standing guard on and off throughout the night and following day.

While provosts are common in reenacting, one doesn't see all that much about them (without doing some digging) from the period. Each brigade and higher probably had a provost marshal at some time, and certainly provost guards were appointed to guard certain geographic localities, like keeping a town from being looted. In the Army of the Potomac, provost marshal Marsena Patrick was also ostensibly responsible for obtaining and analyzing military intelligence (spies, ballon observations, reading enemy newspapers, collecting and collating reports from cavalry scouts, etc.) but in reality that was done, starting in early 1863, by the AOP's Bureau of Military Intelligence (BMI) headed by (if I recall correctly) Col. John Sharpe. Sharpe was under Patrick in theory, but as I understand it in actual practice the BMI was semi-autonomous and often reported directly to the army commander.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Provost

This thread is well past time for a lock down and hosing off, as it has violated the prime directive. Folks, reenacting other reenactors is not reenacting history.