"Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

[mtvernon]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

A question: I have relied on others' knowledge in this regard who have declared that the 'top button' rule was in place until Gen. Grant became general-in-chief in 1864, who then relaxed it.

I didn't see anyone in this topic mention this, a fact that makes me wonder if this information is inaccurate or misinterpreted.

Respectfully,

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

And I have always been willing to note that ladies would not have been shocked my male bodies without coats, what they would have taken another glance at is if Mr. Maxwell Moneybags suddenly stripped off his broadcloth suit right in the midst of a dinner party with guests.

Particularly in the South and urban areas (North and South) women (ladies and not) are seeing laboring classes of men (white and black, enslaved and free) without coats, they are not gentlemen. (Before the Crash of 2006 there was a great thread of lady v. woman and meanings within the period.)

Attached is a wartime image of a coatless overseer with the family that employed him.

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

There is no regulation that forbids the sprouting of wings and flying about the parade ground. This is because nobody ever did that.
There is a regulating that directs the men to keep their coats buttoned because they were leaving them open (human nature being what it is.)
If the troops NEVER violated the Regs, why do we have volumes of courts-martial records that say otherwise?
The question that might be asked is "Is being a bad soldier sometimes a good impression?"


Health note — if you read that book Miss L.M. Alcott kept trying to peddle, A Long, Fatal Love Chase, (one that we can't mention whilst "in Period" because it was only published recently) you will encounter a murder accomplished by the fiendish means of hiding a gentleman's coat so that he was outside at midday without its protection on a hot day and died as a result.
So to modern, mid-nineteenth century medical common knowledge, an unbuttoned coat provides only partial protection from the sun’s deadly rays.

[ThehosGendar]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

"And like Marc said, it could be turning into a reenactorism soon by people who have no idea on 19th Century etiquette."

Could be turning into a reenactorism? I don't want to bust any bubbles but this was a reenactorism more than 25 years ago and still continues.

Research is the reenactorisms worst enemy, and to many reenactors, it's a foreign word. Much of the entrenched reenactor lore of how 19th century people and soldiers behaved is passed down verbally... it's pretty much reenactor oral history, and as any trained historian knows, oral history, especially after being transmitted over several generations, is pretty sketchy.

Reenactor lore promulgates because of trust. A new kid joins, and he's given a mentor in the unit, to show him how to drill and get a uniform. Presumably, it's someone who has been in the unit for a little while, so the new recruit thinks, "He's been doing this a while. He probably knows what he's doing. I should listen to him." Then, a few years pass, and the recruit is now a seasoned reenacting veteran. Now, a new body comes in, and its his turn to drill the newbie. And, so, he teaches how he learned, and what he learned, and the cycle goes on and on.

Add to this some stuff they may have learned from school, T.V. documentaries, and movies, and again, we trust that they know what they're talking about. A documentary talks about Civil War photography, and says that the pictures are grainy. Well, that must mean that photography was really bad! You've probably learned in school that "Victorians" were uptight people. Someone looks at random studio portraits from the entire 1830 - 1890 period, because they're all Victorians and all Victorians are the same. "Wow! They do look really stiff! No one is smiling!" says they. And everyone says this, too! It has to be right!

To this, also add a tablespoon of overreliance on etiquette books, a pinch of modern superiority complex ("They didn't have computers and air conditioning and had to make stuff on their own... that's weird and stupid!"), and a good helping of drivel like The Victorian Trading Company, bake for 4 hours, and I think you'll have the problem. Then you'll need to clean your oven.

[MBBursig]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Well said Mr. Wickersty. Well said.

[JimKindred]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Research is a dieing art.

Research is the reenactorisms worst enemy, and to many reenactors, it's a foreign word. Much of the entrenched reenactor lore of how 19th century people and soldiers behaved is passed down verbally... it's pretty much reenactor oral history, and as any trained historian knows, oral history, especially after being transmitted over several generations, is pretty sketchy.

Reenactor lore promulgates because of trust. A new kid joins, and he's given a mentor in the unit, to show him how to drill and get a uniform. Presumably, it's someone who has been in the unit for a little while, so the new recruit thinks, "He's been doing this a while. He probably knows what he's doing. I should listen to him." Then, a few years pass, and the recruit is now a seasoned reenacting veteran. Now, a new body comes in, and its his turn to drill the newbie. And, so, he teaches how he learned, and what he learned, and the cycle goes on and on.

Add to this some stuff they may have learned from school, T.V. documentaries, and movies, and again, we trust that they know what they're talking about. A documentary talks about Civil War photography, and says that the pictures are grainy. Well, that must mean that photography was really bad! You've probably learned in school that "Victorians" were uptight people. Someone looks at random studio portraits from the entire 1830 - 1890 period, because they're all Victorians and all Victorians are the same. "Wow! They do look really stiff! No one is smiling!" says they. And everyone says this, too! It has to be right!

To this, also add a tablespoon of overreliance on etiquette books, a pinch of modern superiority complex ("They didn't have computers and air conditioning and had to make stuff on their own... that's weird and stupid!"), and a good helping of drivel like The Victorian Trading Company, bake for 4 hours, and I think you'll have the problem. Then you'll need to clean your oven.

[theknapsack]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Mr. Wickersty,

Amen.

[SCTiger]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Why is this a three star thread? Somebody out there must be threatened by these statements. Heck, that's some of the best comments I have seen in a long time. The man brought up a good example of reenactorisms and we learned something, also the lack of research was well stated.

[JimKindred]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

It could also be that there are a lot of people like myself that don't give a darn about using the little stars.

[Shantyman]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Too the best of my understanding, in the presence of civilized company or women, a man needs to wear a jacket fully buttoned not exposing any skin or undershirt (ie. ends of cuffs or collar) at the very least a vest. If unpreparedly adressed or in the presance of a lady he must button the top button of his shirt. In many military camps there were no women or civilians of high regard so clothing restrictions were less inforced wile off duty.

Steven Flibotte
Liberty Hall Fifes & Drums

[JimKindred]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Give us a written period reference on this please. Also did you read all of the previous posts on this subject?

[Shantyman]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

I have no writen reference. Like i Said with the top button issue "To the best of my understanding" the above is how it was explained to me.


Steven Flibotte
Liberty Hall Fifes & Drums

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

These women certainly don't seem to be terribly offended.

[JimKindred]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

This is the Authentic Campaigner forum, please do not make statements you cannot back up without documentation. The majority of this thread has been about trying to eliminate reenactor myths that have been passed on for decades without any period references. I am not trying to bust your chops but I do want you to understand that people on this forum will ask for references when statements are made of a historical nature.

I have no writen reference. Like i Said with the top button issue "To the best of my understanding" the above is how it was explained to me.


Steven Flibotte
Liberty Hall Fifes & Drums

[Shantyman]

Re: "Button That Top Button!" Arrggh!

Beg pardon, completly understood


Steven Flibotte
Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums