Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

[bAcK88]

Hi all,

I have a question that I haven't been able to solve by myself so I turn to the members of this board for some assistance. My question is has anyone seen an image of a Federal soldier with a greatcoat rolled on top of his knapsack or is it a reenactorism?

All of the images that I have seen of Federals with knapsacks on had their blankets rolled on top of their knapsacks. Unfortunately I can't post any images because most of my stuff is back home in CT and I don't want to violate copyright laws. However if anyone owns Echoes of Battle: The Struggle for Chattanooga on page 98 Corporal Cornelius A. O'Callaghan and on page 105 Corporals Jackson Webster and John Doughty have their blankets rolled on top of their knapsacks. I don't know the dates of the images so it is possible that thier greatcoats are in storage, however I have never seen a greatcoat rolled on a Civil War soldier carrying his knapsack. Also in the US Army Regulations published in 1861 it stated that the soldier would roll his blanket on top and fold the greatcoat and carry it inside the pack, however the vast majority of the US Army were volunteers and as shown in the thread about being "poor" soldiers, some Army regulations.

I'm not trying to start something, I just wanted to know if there is any evidence that soldiers rolled their greatcoats.

Thank you,
Bill Backus

[Rob Murray]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Bill,
I do not believe it is a re-enactorism. I have an uncropped 8 1/2x11 copy of an image of Patrick Henry and Issac Lyman Taylor, Co. E, 1st Minnesota Vols. that was published in Richard Moes' book "The Last Full Measure, The Life and Death of the First Minnesota Volunteers" credited to William Frassantino. I don't where my copy was taken from, (as I won it in a raffle) could have been Steve Osman, Frassantino or P.H. Taylors desendents as we did a memorial to P.H.Taylor a number of years ago. Any how, I can see P.H.Taylors rolled up greatcoat on top and his blanket folded in his knapsack(can see the blanket stripe). Other items of note both are wearing dark blue trousers (P.H. has rolled his), P.H.s' sack coat appears to be darker than Issacs (could be lighting?) both appear to be wearing boots(P.H.s' light and Issacs dark), both have cups hanging from haversacks, P.H. is wearing gauntlets with what looks like 3 small issue buttons sewn on them and minimal hat brass(P.H. appears to have a letter). The image is thought to have been taken at Camp Stone, Maryland. December 1861. Hope this helps.

I am hesitant to post the image with Kevin O. being ripped off and all the talk of copyright infringment on the threads these days

Rob Murray
Minnesota First

[Seamus]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Bill,

From Revised U.S. Army Regulations of 1861, Article XIII, 96.
The knapsack of each man
will be placed on the lower shelf of his bunk, at its foot, packed
with his effects, and ready to be slung; the great-coat on the same
shelf, rolled and strapped; the coat, folded inside out, and placed
under the knapsack; the cap on the second or upper shelf; and the
boots well cleaned.

Quartermaster returns usually refer to knapsacks and overcoat straps.

Often in the spring or at the beginning of a campaign overcoats were packed in boxes, marked and stored. Troops, generally, would not have access to their overcoats during the summer months.

James Permane,
15th U.S. Infantry/4th Fla. Vol's

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

The leather straps that go through the loops on top of a knapsack of the era were called "overcoat straps". Figured that piece of info might be worth something here. :)

Now, why would it be that one often sees photos of Federals with blankets on their knapsacks instead of overcoats? One answer may be because, in the first half or so of the war, it was common for Yanks to toss their overcoat on the first march of the spring campaign season and, in the second half of the war, it was typical that a Yank's overcoat was collected by the army for storage until being returned to him in the autumn. Thus, during much of the active campaign season, Federals did not have overcoats.

For campaigns in cooler weather, it was probably somewhat rare for troops to wear an overcoat on the march unless it was really cold (Mine Run campaign might be one example, Stone's River another). If it wasn't worn, where was it carried? The overcoat straps atop the knapsack are the only place it could easily be carried. A blanket folds up fairly uniformly and can be easily put inside a knapsack (assuming the pack is not loaded like the image of "How Si Started In"), but there's few good ways to fold up an overcoat so it fits in the pack as nicely as a blanket would. Further, a soldier would probably want the overcoat on the pack instead of inside it, just in case he needed to get at it if it got cold. Thus, it made practical sense to do as the army and knapsack manufacturer intended and carry the rolled up overcoat on the pack, with the blanket inside it.

[markj]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Two additional bits, for what they're worth:

New York Times, 30 November 1862:

GEN. BUTLER'S ORDERS.

A REVIEW.

INSPECTOR-GENERAL'S OFFICE
HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE GULF,
NEW-ORLEANS, Nov. 18, 1862.

[This section specifies the order of inspection for the following units: 26th Massachussetts Volunteer Infantry, 30th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry, 9th Connecticut Volunteer Infantry, 2nd Massachusetts Light Artillery Battery, and "The Three Batteries of Regulars, under the command of Capt. DURYEA, U.S.A."]

VI. This inspection is intended to be thorough and complete. The troops will be formed promptly at the hour designated, on their usual parade grounds, in full marching order, with knapsacks properly packed, containing great coat and blanket. All clothing belonging to the soldier must be either in his knapsack or upon his person.

******************

By order of Maj.-Gen. B. F. BUTLER.
N. A. M. DUDLEY, Col. and Act. Inspector-General.


New York Times, 12 August 1863:

[Letter from correspondent "C. L. B." bylined "WINCHESTER, TENN., Tuesday, Aug. 4., 1863. Letter goes into extensive detail about camp conditions in that part of Rosecrans' army he was visiting:

Soldier's camps in Summer are by no means romantic or interesting things; villages of arbors, covered with brown branches, dirty, hot and sweltering, with tin cups, newspapers, blankets and equipments lying about in confusion; long lines of mules and horses, kicking and fly-bitten, the men sauntering under trees or about the stations in flannel shirts and trowsers. Every one who could was reading newspapers, and all were orderly and well-behaved.***Nothing will ever give us rapid marches and efficient movements but a reduction of transportation. The men in this climate have already abandoned their knapsacks. The officers ought to be equally cut down in their comforts and luxuries.

NOTE: I don't want to draw too much from the above items, but these suggest two things:

1. Greatcoats, when carried, may well have been placed inside knapsacks rather than strapped to the top, assuming there was enough room.

2. In the case of the second letter, which indicates many, if not all, troops didn't even have knapsacks on which to strap greatcoats (assuming they were still in their possession anyway), your question is interesting but, depending on the scenario, may well be irrelevant.

Thoughts?

Mark Jaeger

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Regulations for the 7th NYSM, with their special militia box knapsacks, were clear: "In marching order, the overcoat is to be rolled and secured on top of the knapsack, with straps placed there for that purpose. When the men are provided with blankets, they will be folded square and placed under the outer straps of the knapsack."

Was it done that way in practice, though? Most of the photos showing the 7th with their packs show the tops devoid of anything rolled, greatcoat or otherwise. One photo shows Joseph Dore with a roll atop his pack, but I can't quite tell if it's a blanket or a greatcoat -- it almost doesn't look bulky enough to be a greatcoat. Either way, it's interesting to note how the ends are tucked in, sort of like the "short roll" of later wars.

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

(Not to get off topic, but notice how low the Sgt.'s haversack is ... also, Marc, is his canteen coverless?? :sarcastic )

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Pretty much all of the 1861 studio shots of the men in the 7th show their haversacks (supposed to be enameled leather, incidentally) at an unaltered length, which was to be 4-4.5 feet long—longer than your average Federal haversack—as well as uncovered canteens.

[bAcK88]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Bill,

From Revised U.S. Army Regulations of 1861, Article XIII, 96.
The knapsack of each man
will be placed on the lower shelf of his bunk, at its foot, packed
with his effects, and ready to be slung; the great-coat on the same
shelf, rolled and strapped; the coat, folded inside out, and placed
under the knapsack; the cap on the second or upper shelf; and the
boots well cleaned.

Quartermaster returns usually refer to knapsacks and overcoat straps.

Often in the spring or at the beginning of a campaign overcoats were packed in boxes, marked and stored. Troops, generally, would not have access to their overcoats during the summer months.

James Permane,
15th U.S. Infantry/4th Fla. Vol's

However Article LI, paragraph 1576 states: Knapsack--of painted canvas, according to pattern now issued by Quartermaster's Department; the great-coat, when carried, to be neatly folded, not rolled, and covered by the outer flap of the knapsack.

Anyway thanks for everyones help so far.
Bill

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

[QUOTE=FranklinGuardsNYSM]One photo shows Joseph Dore with a roll atop his pack, but I can't quite tell if it's a blanket or a greatcoat -- it almost doesn't look bulky enough to be a greatcoat.

When I rool up a blanket and strap it atop a pack, the end looks like a spiral.
When I fold and roll and strap on a greatcoat, it the center resembles a folded-in lump with the coat body wraped around it. THAT is just what this photo looks like.

[bAcK88]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

Well as my luck will have it I found an image of a member of the 7th New York Militia with what looks like a greatcoat rolled up and I can't post it here. Anyway it can be found here: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...m856sf=3c26533

Also I found this image on from the Horse Soldier's website with what appears to be a rolled up greatcoat.

[Greg Renault]

Re: Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

I can't quite tell if it's a blanket or a greatcoat

If the greatcoat is rolled up into the envelope created when the ends of the cape are folded in, then it produces a roll exactly like the one in Marc's picture.

See the instructions at the 142nd PVI site:

http://www.142dpvi.org/kit_articles/rolling_overcoat.htm

[billyreb61]

folding a greatcoat

I know that they are out they, but I haven't found any. What are some sites that give directions on how to properly fold your greatcoat to put on top of your knapsack?

Thanks

[Rob]

Re: folding a greatcoat

http://www.142dpvi.org/kit_articles/rolling_overcoat.htm

[billyreb61]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Thanks for your hellp Rob!