Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

[Foggy Bottom Jim]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Or:

http://www.cwreenactors.com/~sykes/instruction/folding_greatcoat.php

[Dan Munson]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Ahhh, Jim Reynolds hit the point I was going to mention, namely, that technically there is no "proper" way to put the great coat on top of a knapsack, because the U.S. Army never intended it to be carried there! (Never mind that those two little straps are called "coat straps"...) The Sykes' Regulars web link that Jim provided gives you the dope on doing it the "Army" way (at least circa 1861). Not that all those volunteers didn't feel free to do things "their" way when they could get away with it. As to the rolling and folding techniques demonstarted on the links Jim and others have provided are, as far as know, "best guess" or "best practice" techniques. In 20-plus years in this hobby, I have not yet come across an authentic, period description of any "correct" way to pack a double-bag knapsack...other than the Regulations' prescription of where to put the great coat. If someone here does have such a period description, I'd sure like to get a reference. I sort of suspect there may have been some "custom" in this regard, but I can also easily imagine that "custom" varied from commander to commander.

Dan Munson
Co. K, 100th Penn'a V. I.

[weed]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Go to the research section of the 33d Wikscinsin web site.

http://www.33wis.com/articles/articles.htm

The way to fold a greatcoat are posted there, right from US Regulaions.

John Wedeward

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: folding a greatcoat

That shows the method for rolling a cavalry greatcoat, and appears to result in a width more appropriate for a saddle than a knapsack:

[From Cooke's, off The Drill Network]


"Manner of rolling the Cloak.

"The cloak being entirely unfolded, the sleeves are laid flatand extended parallel to the two front edges of the cloak; each one is then turned up and folded near the elbow, so as to give a length of 3 feet 6 inches from one elbow to the other, the middle of the cloak remaining un*covered. The cape is then turned down over the sleeves, in such a manner that the front edges may exactly cover those of the cloak.

"The lower extremity of the cloak is turned up about 10 inches; the skirts are likewise turned towards each other, so that they may touch the fold of the sleeves, and that, being folded a second time upon themselves, they may give to the cloak the form of a rectangle; the lower extremity of the cloak is then turned up about 7 inches, and it is rolled as tightly as possible, commencing at the collar and pressing the knee upon it as it is rolled, to bold it. The part of the cloak which is rolled is then introduced into the sort of pocket formed by the part which was turned back."

For infantry, I've yet to see any instructions actually from the Regulations, though those from the Syke's site work well. Based on a number of sources, I believe that the straps actually attached to the top of the knapsack are not the "overcoat straps" referred to in period equipage lists. Here's one source, from Cornell's MOA site, from the Century Magazine in 1864.

"Fly Leaves from a Soldier's Diary" is an account of service in the 3-month First Regiment, District of Columbia Volunteers. In this passage the author describes the issuance of camp and garrison equipage:

"The next afternoon and evening, including in the latter elastic term many hours more properly claimed by the night, were spent in confused and bungling attempts to issue the clothing and camp and garrison equipage considerately provided for us by the Government. First everybody opened all the boxes at once, and grabbed for everything. Then everybody put his things back and petitioned for somebody else’s. ‘My overcoat is too big.’ ‘Mine is too short.’ ‘Golly! what sleeves!’ ‘What are these bags for?’ ‘Those things knapsacks! how you goin’ to fassen ‘em? no straps!’ ‘My canteen has no cork.’ . . . ‘Silence!’ roars the captain, and ‘SILENCE!’ rasps the orderly sergeant, three times as loudly and six as disagreeably. And then everybody being ordered to replace everything, that a proper system of distribution may be adopted, half of us hide our plunder away, and the other half dump their prizes promiscuously and in sullenness. ‘Here, here!’ barks Sergeant Files; ‘this kind of thing’s played out. There were sixty-five canteens; where’s the other sixty?’ Presently the confusion unravels a little, but, after a breathing spell, begins again worse than ever, when our melancholy friend, Smallweed, having signed the clothing receipt doubtfully; presently announces, with the air of an injured martyr, that he supposes it’s all right, but he can’t find all the things he signed for. Then everybody frantically examines into this new difficulty, and discovers that they signed for everything, and got nothing. Poor Captain Pipes scratches his head perplexedly, and smokes in anxious puffs. Sergeant Files hustles everybody about, exposes several shamefaced impostors, who have more than everything, and by the timely announcement that Smallweed’s deficiency consists of two over-coat straps, which are no longer used in the service, restores comparative quiet."

[neocelt]

Point of clarification...

Gents,

To reaffirm what has already been so astutely kenned by Pvt Schnapps, the instructions to which Mssr. Wedeward alluded are not from the Regulations; rather, they conform to the instructions given in every authorized cavalry manual from Scott's through Cooke's (and beyond, I suspect...). Weed reprinted them (with my permission) from the Civil War Cavalry Review--you're welcome...

Cheers,

[sigsaye]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Actually, I believe that both methods of carrying the Greatcoat/Blanket are mentioned in the 1861 (Revised) regulations. When this site first went up ('99/'00? Before the great crashes), there was a copy of them, and some Quartermaster/Commissary documents in the articles section that when read together made all of this completely clear.

In the original version of the regs (actually written a year or so before the war, and not effective until 1861), the blanket is folded in the knapsack and the coat goes on top. The rest of the bag is filled with whatever the Pre-War Army thought a Soldier needed to carry. The dog tent and gum blanket had not yet been adopted. This was fine and good for the times. The Army wasn't actually going any where, so when it moved, it moved at the pace of it's wagons.

War starts. Now, the Army must move, fast. The Army imediately realizes that it's logistics system is inadequate for the task. The LOG Train can not keep up with the Combat Army.

Details, the haversack will only hold three days marching rations and mess furniture. Been tried by folks on this forum. Cartridge box will only hold fourty rounds (.58 cal musket with tins). Not enough to sustain a Soldier in the field while waiting for supplies.

The Quartermaster Department issues orders that the new basic load of each Soldier is to be increased to five days rations and eighty rounds. This is almost imediately followed with a revision to eight days rations and 120 rounds of ammunition. (all of this is in theroy of course, we know that the Army was hard pressed to supply the original ammounts). Where is the Soldier going to carry all this extra?

The "Revision" to the regs then says that the Blanket is to be rolled and carried on top of the knapsack, and the coat (if carried) should be folded and placed between the folded sections of the bag. The bag was not emptied to make room for more socks, shirts, uniforms, books and what not, but for the stuff a Combat Soldier needed to stay in the field, food and ammo. Most Soldiers were already doing the "Lighten the Load" to what was needed any way.

The problem is that all of this info is tucked away in the little "nooks and crannies" of 19th century Army instructions, painful reading for me. But it's all there. It might even still be on this site somewhere. I haven't figured out how to make the spell check work yet, so I have no luck searching for stuff any more.

Steve Hesson

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: folding a greatcoat

With no intention of disrespect Mr. Hesson, I think you may be thinking of the following research articles, which remain available on this site:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8551

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1095

These and some trips to the OR might firm up some of the details in your recollections.

[Seamus]

Re: folding a greatcoat

The followings quote was found in Regulars! A History of Gen. George Sykes' U.S. Regular Infantry Division of the Fifth Army Corps, 1861-1864, Revised Edition by Timothy J. Reese.

"There was always a rivalry among us as to who could pack his kit the neatest and show the fewest creases in the overcoat when rolled up and strapped on top of the knapsack. In this particular we never seemed to be able to equal the Permanent Party [at Governor’s Island, New York Harbor] whose overcoats were faultlessly rolled. The usual formula of a general inspection was carried through, as prescribed in the regulations, ending up with opening ranks, unslinging and opening knapsacks and displaying our kits. The General and his aides-de-camp, accompanied by the commanding officer and the adjutant, first inspected the band, then passed through the [musicians’] open ranks without any comments and on through the ranks of the Permanent Party, each of whom stood like a statue at the position of “order arms.”
An officer of the general’s staff, remarking on the immaculate rolling of many of the overcoats, tapped one of them with the scabbard of his sword. It emitted a hollow sound. He asked the soldier what it was, and the man explained that it was a dummy made out of a piece of stove pipe covered with blue cloth. The old general noticed the incident but merely smiled as did some of the other officers. However, it proved to be the end of the dummy overcoats on parade."

Augustus Meyers, Ten Years in the Ranks, The Sterling Press, 1914.

[sigsaye]

Re: folding a greatcoat

With no intention of disrespect Mr. Hesson, I think you may be thinking of the following research articles, which remain available on this site:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8551

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1095

These and some trips to the OR might firm up some of the details in your recollections.

None taken, and thank you. I don't do Army anymore, and generally stay out of these sorts of things, but it pops up so routinely. I'll lay below now and work on my "Homeward Bounders" now until I go on watch.

Steve Hesson

[Matt_E_Wright]

Re: folding a greatcoat

James,
Great quote, but don't you know you're not supposed to post those types of things until someone claims that rolling the overcoat on top of the knapsack is a reenactorism?

Anyway...here are two of my favorite pictures of overcoats on top of knapsacks:

1. EOG Federal (hard bound) pg. 41(Ignatz Gresser leaning on top of his knapsack w/ overcoat on top).

2. The "Tenting Tonight" Volume in the old Time Life Civil War series, pg. 18-19 (an entire company of the 22nd NYSM near Harper's Ferry, in column, w/ knapsacks, overcoats & enfield rifles w/ sabre bayonets.

Matt Wright

[Seamus]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Thanks, Matt.

Here's an image of a soldier of the 7th New York State Militia with an overcoat rolled up and strapped to the knapsack.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: folding a greatcoat

Great sources.

Regardless of what the Regs do or don't say, in the few times I've carried both greatcoat and blanket, I've tried it both ways -- blanket on top and greatcoat folded, and greatcoat rolled on top with the blanket in the bag.

Maybe it's because my greatcoat is bulkier than my blanket, but I've found it easier to march with the greatcoat rolled on top, held in place with the blanket :) straps.

I followed the instructions Rob cited, which apparently are adapted from a later guide for rolling the overcoat. It works pretty well and the end result looks a lot like that shown in the photos mentioned.[/url]

[RJSamp]

Blanks on knapsacks with straps

Camp Mason, Sept. 1st, 1862

Dear Brother (Nathaniel Melcher):
......
"We have received all our equipments, which make quite a load when all packed. 1 Knapsack with straps to lash the blanket on the top."........

H(olman). S. Melcher

(he was a Corporal at the time).

page 2 "With a Flash of His Sword" edited by William Styple, The Writings of Major Holman S Melcher, 20th Maine Volunteers.

[1stMaine]

Re: Blanks on knapsacks with straps

RJ,

No one ever said that blankets were NOT carried on the tops of knapsacks. There is plenty of evidence to show that being done.

However, the straps are for the greatcoat. Do not underestimate the naivete' of a 20 year-old green recruit.

Heavens, folks might well argue that tin cups, plates, and even bayonets are simply entrenching tools in disguise :)

Respects,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Blanks on knapsacks with straps

Really? What is shown in this image?