Gourds as canteens

[C.R. Henderson]

Re: civilian canteens

Alas, I have searched high and low and I think my wife is quite upset with me now (again) for putting the house in disarray (again) but no luck finding that article. I hate putting info up without the source or first-hand experience to back it up but it really was in there. Oh well. I also did a Google search on gourd canteens and got quite a few hits. Hope that helped, Lindsey.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: civilian canteens

Honestly, I haven't found enough information to say that citizens and particularly women and children ran around with portable water carrying devices.

However, since that is sometimes just nice to have or necessary, the best alternative I have found is to carry water in a jug or glass bottle. Place it in a basket and carry with you.

Others milage may vary...

[Mutt]

Re: civilian canteens

Afternoon all,

Here's another subject which tickled my brain just before Perryville. The Tavern was my watering hole that weekend, but what if it wasn't there and I was a lone, thirsty traveler or refugee?

I had a nice talk with Mrs. Crabb regarding the stoneware "ring jug" or "saddle horn" jug they are now selling. I was more then a few bucks short of being able to purchase one right then, unfortunately. It seemed a very practical container for the average workman. Here's a few links I dug up regarding them:

This one has some odd "facts" but the image is nice:
http://www.mintmuseum.org/craftingnc/02-02-001-c.htm

A great story I happened upon:
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/penl0698.htm

The reference to the companies 19th-century manufacturing, beginning in the 1840s, is a help.

I have just touched the tip of the iceberg and must ask: How authentic would they be for just anyone (middle class worker), besides a farmer, use?

I do have an opinion on civilian canteens. For one, why not tote a dipper or small cup to dip into a cool stream? I can see not having just an open bucket beneath a tree. I am a bit ignorant of all the details of civilian life during the mid-19th century, but do enjoy discussing possibilities . . . so humor me :)

Cheers!

[Cottoncarder]

Re: civilian canteens

Four words, "the gourd is my freind." Only a short time ago Emanuel posted an excelent piece on the subject. There was also the demijohn, a wicker covered glass jug which was easily acquired from a local merchant. Between the two, a gourd is a lot lighter, but must be carefully prepared.

Cut a hole in the top of a "pitcher gourd" and allowing only enough space for a cork to plug the hole. Fill with water and allow to sit for a few days. Remove all traces of seeds and pulp. Use a wire coat hanger to dislodge any particles. These are toxic folks! Line with Bees Wax. We are really good at growing gourds out here in the West in just about any shape from canteen to dipper.

You need to ask yourself the following questions:

Who am I?

What class am I?

Study the flora and fauna of the area. What resources did I have at my hands?

It is pretty easy for me. I'm lower class and live off the land.

[jgr1974]

Re: civilian canteens

The ring canteen-

Though not an aproved vender, a company called Sprinkle Pottery makes them and 18th and 19th century jugs as well. These are excellent quality! I have owned a jug from him, and wass very happy! He calls this a ring flask. It is listed for $16. I am unsure of size!

Here is a link

http://www.historicalpottery.com/Pottery/Jugs/tabid/67/List/0/CategoryID/4/Level/1/SortField/0/Default.aspx

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: civilian canteens

Stay away from the ring canteen. The reproduction shown is not what would be considered a 19th century firing and I have my doubts about the actual provenance of the things in general.

The brandy and the 19th century wares appear to be nice but ask to see the markings on the bottom first. Crazy markings can ruin a nice piece.

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: civilian canteens

Greetings,
There's ample evidence of stoneware jugs most with a handle being used by citizen's in rural communities during the 19th century and even early 20th century as a portable way to carry water in the field. This is supported by a huge amount of genre paintings, sketches, written accounts, and photographs. There was a serious need for portable water during the 19th century as agricultural methods were extremely physically taxing.

Can anyone share any evidence of gourds or ring canteens being used by the typical citizen during the 19th century? They're cool but I just haven't seen many sources supporting their widespread use.

Darrek Orwig

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: civilian canteens

Greetings,
One thing to remember it's much more productive say if you're a farmer hoeing corn to have a jug at the end of your row then having to walk 200 yards to the nearest stream or well for a quick drink of water. Same for scything hay, reaping grain, or bundling wheat...all are jobs that occurred in the heat of the summer and water was important then just as it is now in order to stay healthy. Another issue with just carrying a cup with you is that if you're working with draft animals it's easier to stop at the end of the row under a shade tree and give them a break while you grab a swig out of your jug instead of going through the work of unhitching a team from a plow or cultivator as you go down to the nearest creek or well that could be 10 yards away or 500+ yards away.

I say this with experience as someone who has farmed with draft animals and 19th century techniques.

Darrek Orwig

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: civilian canteens

Yes, I too would be curious of this ring jug. I see Ezra Barngoods selling them so maybe they can help. I will also seek further information and will let you know what I find.

I don't know about the yeoman farmer or even how slaveholders with less slaves achieved getting water out in the fields. However, large slaveholders typically used younger children 5-9 in bringing water out to the fields and that was brought out in buckets.

Again, the thing we have to remember is social status, place, etc. Most people were not outside as long as we are at events. When we are at historic houses we are mostly portraying people of middle and upper class backgrounds who would need to only worry about their labor force getting water as they would not be out cutting down wheat or milking cows.

A stoneware jug would be as inappropriate at a fancy dress ball as silk would be to slop the stalls of the horses. However, we have to sometimes make some concessions for the fact of the matter is we cannot wait til we get to the next stream or the next kind tavernkeeper.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: civilian canteens

Sometimes called pilgrim bottles, ring jugs are a take off on early decorative Cypriot earthenware pieces that stood upright on a base. Small ring shaped oil bottles were also carried by medieval religious pilgrims. Later Rhenish copies, in grey stoneware, commonly date from the fourth quarter of the 19th century through the 1940’s. It is not uncommon to find small example with ring ears to attach a cord for the neck or shoulder.

The earliest traceable domestic ring jug example I have handled has a circa date of 1890.

The utilitarian assumption here it is that the ring form, having a large open surface area, keeps liquids in the vessel cool long after it has been filled (and then submerged in a cold creek to further chill it). This theory also exposes more surface area to hot air or sunlight, quickly reversing the cooling effects of the cold water submersion. All stoneware has excellent thermal qualities and does in fact keep cool things cool and warm things warm* longer than glass or metal. Shape and size does not matter as much as the thickness of the clay body walls. Thick sides are better insulators and this leads to the debunking of tale of the ring being perfect for a pommel. The potters that made these took great pride in turning out thin walled bodies, rendering ring jugs too fragile to stand up to the constant battering of the trail. The weight of the water certainly didn’t help. The saddle pommel myth is just that.

The fanciful ring form was very popular in the 1930’s and has become fashionable again with the renaissance of southern folk and country pottery. The popularity of the ring cannot be denied but its common use as a 19th century canteen is doubtful. The science doesn’t jive, nor does the archaeology.

&&&&&&&&&&&&

J.B. Cole Pottery Catalogue (Winston Salem: Meadearis Stamp and Printing Co., 1 June 1940)

Georgeanna Greer, American Stonewares: The Art and Craft of Utilitarian Potters (Exon PA: Schiffer Publishing Co., 1981)

Nancy Sweezy, Raised in Clay (Chapel Hill: UNC Press, 1984)

Charles Zug, Turners and Burners (Chapel Hill: UNC Press, 1986)**

&&&&&&&&&&&&

* I’ll be happy to open a thread on Victorian saltglazed stoneware hand warmers and we see can that whimsical pottery actually has a useful
function.

** Outstanding book!

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: civilian canteens

Yes, I too would be curious of this ring jug. I see Ezra Barngoods selling them so maybe they can help. I will also seek further information and will let you know what I find.

I don't know about the yeoman farmer or even how slaveholders with less slaves achieved getting water out in the fields. However, large slaveholders typically used younger children 5-9 in bringing water out to the fields and that was brought out in buckets.

Again, the thing we have to remember is social status, place, etc. Most people were not outside as long as we are at events. When we are at historic houses we are mostly portraying people of middle and upper class backgrounds who would need to only worry about their labor force getting water as they would not be out cutting down wheat or milking cows.

A stoneware jug would be as inappropriate at a fancy dress ball as silk would be to slop the stalls of the horses. However, we have to sometimes make some concessions for the fact of the matter is we cannot wait til we get to the next stream or the next kind tavernkeeper.

Emmanuel,
When portraying people who are occupying a historic house, it's common sense that water would be acquired from a well in a pitcher and served in glasses. Wouldn't a fancy dress ball have refreshments available?

Agriculture was much more prevalent in life during the middle part of the 19th century then it is now. In the midwest even "town folk" generally had larger lots than many people do today and would have raised fairly large gardens and had livestock consisting of a milk cow, chickens, horses, and even hogs. Unless critter were doing it, lawns would be mowed with scythes and weeds were trimmed from fence rows with sickles. I've seen this in lower class and even middle class families residing in towns even when the family's wage earner is a store keeper, clerk, lawyer or a doctor. Now to clear it up, by town I'm obviously not referring to a city.

On another issue, I think it's apples to oranges if we compare the experience of slaves to white yeomen farmers, tenant farmers, and agricultural workers.

In short what I'm trying to get here at is agriculture and physical work was a way of life for many Americans during the middle part of the 19th century. The mechinzation of agriculture was just getting started and most farming techniques were still fairly labor intesive at this point, since most of the operations in this occupation occur on dry summer days it would make sense that water was needed for those performing the work. Further more there is ample documentaton of water being carried by those doing physical work. So, carrying a jug isn't going to be something foreign for most citizens during this time period.

I'm going to try to stop here...there is just so much we can go into on this topic.

Darrek Orwig

[Mutt]

Re: civilian canteens

Mr. Dabney, you took the words out of my mouth, simply ask the vendors selling the ring jug. I simply did one of those things and put my faith in the words of the Crabbs. In all honesty, that would do it for me only because hey, it's their business to sell authentic goods (still can't get over the great set-up at events :)).

Great point about time spent outdoors. Obvious, but something I hadn't thought about.

Mr. Orwig, I don't believe Emmanuel was comparing the experience of the slave to that of the farmers, but merely stating that he knows this was how large slaveholders got their water in the fields. Figuring out what the yeoman farmer etc. did for water in the fields or in outdoor, labor-intensive occupations/activities far from a water source is the question we're pondering.

Also, I do enjoy diving into this subject very much. I think that surely we can only go so far as to find the facts, state the concrete evidence and conclusions and enjoy the process of doing so. Heck, that's what this board in all about. :)

I'll be back. Hopefully with more fat to chew.

[Hank Trent]

Re: civilian canteens

Also, it occurs to me on the jug question, in typical agricultural use, I'm picturing the jug placed in a convenient location for the worker to go to at intervals, rather than used like a regular canteen and carried everywhere. Is that what we're talking about? Or are we picturing a jug being carried on the person like a military canteen?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[tmdreb]

Re: civilian canteens

Greetings,
One thing to remember it's much more productive say if you're a farmer hoeing corn to have a jug at the end of your row then having to walk 200 yards to the nearest stream or well for a quick drink of water.

I don't think he meant carried around like a canteen in this example.

[1stMo Drummer]

Gourd Canteen

I was wondering if anyone knows about gourd canteens.How common,if at all,what kind of gourd,how they were made,etc...
I seem to remember reading somewhere that some Missouri State Guard troops used them but I can't remember where.
Thanks
Travis Franklin