Bayonet sizing?

[semoreb]

I know there was a thread before the great crash that described a better way to size a bayonet for a '42 springfield. I am curious to know. I have a small amount of play that I am not happy with and wonder if anyone of the knowledgeable folks here might have some good information to pass on.

If I remember correctly that someone stated there was a way to use a small piece of flat brass to correct this problem. I was wondering how this might be accomplished.
All help greatly appreciated.

semoreb - James Maupin

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

I started that thread. Unfortunately I did not archive it before the crash.

I originally posted a question asking how to reshape the socket for an Italian '42 Springfield bayonet. I had taken a hammer to mine to create more of an oval shape. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS and will never do it again. I bent it a little too much and couldn't get it back into a workable shape.

Here is what I recall for answers:

1. Mr. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt recommended taking it to a blacksmith and having him reshape it.
2. Someone recommended (I believe it was Mr. Charles Heath) having a brass piece fitted into the socket. Logwood was the only one I found that does this.

My resolution was to buy a new '42 bayonet. I eventually found a blacksmith that reshaped the bayonet that I had damaged. I have since sold the newer replacement bayonet since I didn't need it anymore.

I hope this gets you off on the right track.

[semoreb]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Thank you sir for the reply. I hope some more people might have some suggestions.

semoreb - James Maupin

[Michael McComas]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

If the bayonet is too big, the best way to deal with that is to get a sheet brass shim and solder it in place. Bushing the socket was done on a lot of bayonets when converting from .58 cal to small bore (.45 cal) during the early transition era of the 1870's.

If the socket is too small, the correct way to fix it is to get a blacksmith to heat the socket and force it onto a tapered mandrel to enlarge the socket, then retemper it.

Cheers,

Michael

[sauguszouave]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

If the socket is too small, the correct way to fix it is to get a blacksmith to heat the socket and force it onto a tapered mandrel to enlarge the socket, then retemper it.

I would be curious to know if anyone has documentation on how the bayonets were fitted at the armories?

Having worked in my misspent youth for several years as a restoration blacksmith at Mystic Seaport, I see some problems with the mandrel approach:

1. You want the socket to have the same taper as the outside of the barrel that the bayonet is going to fit on. That taper is extremely gradual on an 1842 musket. That means you need to start with a mandrel with an extremely gradual taper; not something that you would find lying around the typical blacksmiths shop either now or in 1842.

2. You need to make sure you don't drive the socket down the mandrel past the diameter you want. Otherwise the socket is now too big. There are two ways to do that. One is to tap a little and test fit over and over and over. This is very hard to do because the socket expands every time you heat it. If you measure when it's still hot, it will shrink when it's cool and be too small. If you cool it before each measurement, you have to reheat it for each trip to the mandrel. The other method is to put a stop or shoulder on the mandrel at the correct point to prevent over-driving the socket. That requires a very precisely made mandrel which includes a correct estimate of how oversize the mandrel must be to allow for the shrinking of the socket when it cools.

3. If your fitting a bunch of bayonets, it is much easier for a properly equipped machine shop (and we know that Springfield and Harpers Ferry had state-of-the-art machine shops) to make a bore or drill with the proper taper and a stop. And it's even easier to use a lathe. Cutting a taper on a lathe is not difficult at all, even an inside taper. Machining the socket cold elimates all the shrinkage calculations.

4. Original bayonet sockets were made of iron, not steel. Only the blade was steel. It is not possible to temper iron. However, if the socket is iron, it would be possible to press fit the socket on a steel mandrel cold thereby eliminating the shrinkage problems mentioned above. This would require a good, heavy arbor press and a properly made steel mandrel.

5. I own an original 1842 bayonet in near mint condition and it has tool marks on the inside of the socket that look like it was turned to size. The biggest difference between my original and my Armi-Sport reproduction that affects the fit is the locking ring, not the socket. The locking ring on the original is sloped or tapered on the front edge so it wedges itself against the lug as you rotate it. When the locking ring is fully turned the socket is wedged on tight. The ring won't unlock by accident and the socket doesn't rattle on the barrel.

Regards,

Paul Kenworthy

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Hallo!

From ORDNANCE MEMORANDA No. 22, (for the making of the M1873 socket bayonet) :

"Socket welded on. — The socket-plate and head of the blade are heated, the plate placed on the head, and quickly welded to it by trip-hammer.
"The socket is reheated; trimmed by a pair of shears, and curved over a mandrel by a hand-hammer.
"Lapwelding. — The socket is reheated, a mandrel inserted, and the edges welded together in a die under a trip-hammer.
"The socket is again heated, placed in a die under an-other trip-hammer and brought to shape.
"Neck-swaging. — The socket and neck are again heated and their position with respect to the blade determined by a drop-hammer forcing the different parts in a die. "Annealing socket. — The bayonets are placed in the annealing- furnace, the blades for the greater portion of their length passing downward between the bars of a grate. Charcoal is laid on the grate, over the socket-necks and upper portion of the blades. A fire is started and the parts mentioned are heated to a red heat. The charcoal burns away and the metal cools slowly, remaining in the furnace about 48 hours. The lower portions of the blades do not require annealing as they are annealed immediately after rolling.
"Pickled. — The bayonets are vitrioled as before explained.
"First boring. — The sockets are roughly bored nearly to size.
"First turning. — The exterior of the socket is turned off except at the bridge.
"Burring sockets. — The fin at each end of the socket is filed off by hand.
"Straightening blade. — The blade is straightened on an anvil preparatory to milling.
"First facing. — The face of the blade next the neck is milled off for a distance of about three inches.
"Milling blade. — The grooves and the edges are milled, bringing the blade nearly to the required size.
"Punching points. — The end of the blade is punched in a die nearly to shape and size.
"Heeling and pointing. — The point of the blade and the sides at the point of junction with the neck are milled to the required form.
"Tempering. — The blade is heated to a cherry red and then plunged into brine. This renders it very hard and brittle. The blade is then coated with sperm-oil and heated until the oil is burned off, when it is left with a spring temper. It is then straightened on an anvil.
"Buffing edge. — The edges are straightened and smoothly buffed on a horizontal buff-wheel.
"Buffing face. — The face of the blade is buffed to re-move the rough surface left in milling.
"Buffing back and point. — The three edges and the point are also buffed to give a smooth surface for polishing.
"First punching. — The socket is placed on a mandrel containing a die and the slot is punched out except the portion through the arch.
"Second boring. — The socket is bored up nearly to its true size.
"Second turning. — The exterior of the socket is turned down except at the arch.
"First milling socket. — The ragged ends of the socket off at the arch.
"Second punching. — The socket is punched through the arch.
"Milling neck. — The neck is milled to shape and nearly to size.
"Buffing neck. — The neck is buffed to remove roughness left by the milling tools.
"Grinding blade. — The back flutes of the blade are ground to give a smooth surface for polishing.
"Filing slot. — The slot is filed to size for the front sight, after which the socket is milled.
"Second milling. — This operation rounds the end of the socket next the blade.
"Drilling and tapping. — Boring and tapping the hole in the socket for the stop-screw, which is so placed as to arrest the clasp at the proper position.
"Polishing. — Smoothing the blade, socket, and lower corners or edges of the latter upon an emery-wheel. "Inspecting. — Examining the polishing, testing and temper of the blade by bending it in four different directions, and testing the welding of the neck and socket, by striking it a smart blow upon a work-bench.
"First reaming. — Screwing in the stop-screw, cutting it off inside and outside of the socket, and reaming the in-side of the socket to gauge.
"Fitting. — Flattening the sides of the stop-screw with a `straddle-mill' to bring the clasp to a correct position when assembled.
"Second filing. — Smoothing the stud-mortise and rounding off the exterior corners of the socket. "Browning. — Substantially the same as for the barrel: which see.
"Inspecting. — Examining the browning and welding of the neck to the socket to see if any seams appear. "Assembling. — Putting on the clasp, fitting and adjusting the clasp to gauge.
"Second reaming. — Finish-reaming the socket to admit the standard plug-gauge.
"Inspecting. — Examining and carefully gauging.

Under the section for FINISHING AND TESTING:

"If the proof shows no defects, he verifies the dimensions and bore of the socket and the accuracy of the channels.


Very "paper or less" thin brass sheet ("shim stock") is available at hobby stores that deal with model railroad stuff...

Curt

[semoreb]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

I would like to thank all who replied. I was especially interested with the addition by Mr. Schmidt. I find it very interesting to read the entire process of producing one bayonet by hand. I have seen many smithy demonstrations in the past. My first mainstream unit commander was an amateur blacksmith.

I have access to sheet brass from several locations in my area. I had read before about attaching this to correct the problem and soldering was the suggestion. I was wondering if standard soldering would be strong enough or if the brass would need to be brazed in to be more correct. I realize this will show very little, but I am a little bit of a perfectionist when it comes to my firearms. I would also like to hear from anyone who has seen this on an original example.

Again, Thanks to all,

semoreb - James Maupin

[sauguszouave]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Thank you, Curt, for the ordnance memo.

Not surprising to find that the socket was bored and reamed to size and tested with a plug gauge. That would be consistent with the tooling marks on my original. Interesting also to see how much tooling was required. It didn't occur to me, for example, that the points were punched in a die.

For those who are interested in manufacturing processes, there are 40 operations listed in this routing. Only 6 of them are what would be classified as true "smithing" operations, that is operations in which the piece is forged. Of those, 4 use a power hammer and dies; only two are done by hand. On the other hand, there are 23 machining operations.

Regards,

Paul Kenworthy

[MO-Pard]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

2. Someone recommended (I believe it was Mr. Charles Heath) having a brass piece fitted into the socket. Logwood was the only one I found that does this.

Did you mean "Lodgewood"?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Hallo!

I seem to have lost my editing ability...

At any rate, here is the first part of the Memoranda on bayonet making. I should have just pasted the whole thing, but since we were tlaking aobut sockets, I didn't.
This goes on the top of my previous post...

"THE BAYONET. The material from which the blade is formed is a cast-steel bar, cross section 0".625 square, the length of which is sufficient to bring up the weight to 14 ounces.
"Cutting. — The bar is cut into suitable lengths by a large pair of shears worked by power, and is determined as follows: A tube containing water is capable of receiving 14 ounces of steel without causing the water to run over.
"The bar enters the tube, and when the water rises to the level the bar is cut off.
"The intention is that the same amount of stock shall 1 in each bar.
"Neck-rounding. — Each piece thus cut off is heated am a small round head formed at one end, under a pony-hammer. A neck connects the head with the bar.
"Rolling. — The bars are placed in a reverberatory fu nace. When brought to a red heat a bar is taken out by a workman with a pair of tongs and inserted in the first nine grooves on the surface of the rolls. It is then inserted in each groove in succession to the fourth, through which it is passed three times. It is then passed through each of the remaining grooves, after which it is inserted up to the neck in a cast-iron box filled with fine charcoal where it undergoes annealing.
"No reheating is necessary throughout the whole operation. The first four grooves serve merely to draw out the bar, while the others flute the blade.
"Neck-heading. — The head and neck are heated, the neck bent at right angles to the blade under a drop hammer, and the head upset under a trip hammer, form a broader surface for receiving the socket-plat The socket-plate is of wrought iron, forged and trimmed from a piece 2.35 inches square by 1/2 inch in thickness. It is pickled in oil of vitriol and water heated by steam, before it is welded to the blade.
"Socket welded on. — The socket-plate and head of the blade are heated, the plate placed on the head, and quickly welded to it by trip-hammer.
"The socket is reheated; trimmed by a pair of shears, and curved over a mandrel by a hand-hammer.
"Lapwelding. — The socket is reheated, a mandrel inserted, and the edges welded together in a die under a trip-hammer.
"The socket is again heated, placed in a die under an-other trip-hammer and brought to shape.
"Neck-swaging. — The socket and neck are again heated and their position with respect to the blade determined by a drop-hammer forcing the different parts in a die. "Annealing socket. — The bayonets are placed in the annealing- furnace, the blades for the greater portion of their length passing downward between the bars of a grate. Charcoal is laid on the grate, over the socket-necks and upper portion of the blades. A fire is started and the parts mentioned are heated to a red heat. The charcoal burns away and the metal cools slowly, remaining in the furnace about 48 hours. The lower portions of the blades do not require annealing as they are annealed immediately after rolling.
"Pickled. — The bayonets are vitrioled as before explained.
"First boring. — The sockets are roughly bored nearly to size.
"First turning. — The exterior of the socket is turned off except at the bridge.
"Burring sockets. — The fin at each end of the socket is filed off by hand.
"Straightening blade. — The blade is straightened on an anvil preparatory to milling.
"First facing. — The face of the blade next the neck is milled off for a distance of about three inches.
"Milling blade. — The grooves and the edges are milled, bringing the blade nearly to the required size.
"Punching points. — The end of the blade is punched in a die nearly to shape and size.
"Heeling and pointing. — The point of the blade and the sides at the point of junction with the neck are milled to the required form.
"Tempering. — The blade is heated to a cherry red and then plunged into brine. This renders it very hard and brittle. The blade is then coated with sperm-oil and heated until the oil is burned off, when it is left with a spring temper. It is then straightened on an anvil.
"Buffing edge. — The edges are straightened and smoothly buffed on a horizontal buff-wheel.
"Buffing face. — The face of the blade is buffed to re-move the rough surface left in milling.
"Buffing back and point. — The three edges and the point are also buffed to give a smooth surface for polishing.
"First punching. — The socket is placed on a mandrel containing a die and the slot is punched out except the portion through the arch.
"Second boring. — The socket is bored up nearly to its true size.
"Second turning. — The exterior of the socket is turned down except at the arch.
"First milling socket. — The ragged ends of the socket off at the arch.
"Second punching. — The socket is punched through the arch.
"Milling neck. — The neck is milled to shape and nearly to size.
"Buffing neck. — The neck is buffed to remove roughness left by the milling tools.
"Grinding blade. — The back flutes of the blade are ground to give a smooth surface for polishing.
"Filing slot. — The slot is filed to size for the front sight, after which the socket is milled.
"Second milling. — This operation rounds the end of the socket next the blade.
"Drilling and tapping. — Boring and tapping the hole in the socket for the stop-screw, which is so placed as to arrest the clasp at the proper position.
"Polishing. — Smoothing the blade, socket, and lower corners or edges of the latter upon an emery-wheel. "Inspecting. — Examining the polishing, testing and temper of the blade by bending it in four different directions, and testing the welding of the neck and socket, by striking it a smart blow upon a work-bench.
"First reaming. — Screwing in the stop-screw, cutting it off inside and outside of the socket, and reaming the in-side of the socket to gauge.
"Fitting. — Flattening the sides of the stop-screw with a `straddle-mill' to bring the clasp to a correct position when assembled.
"Second filing. — Smoothing the stud-mortise and rounding off the exterior corners of the socket. "Browning. — Substantially the same as for the barrel: which see.
"Inspecting. — Examining the browning and welding of the neck to the socket to see if any seams appear. "Assembling. — Putting on the clasp, fitting and adjusting the clasp to gauge.
"Second reaming. — Finish-reaming the socket to admit the standard plug-gauge.
"Inspecting. — Examining and carefully gauging.


There is also a part on the making of the bayonet clasp, bayonet clasp screw, finishing and testing; and inspection gauges for the bayonet, the bayonet clasp, and the bayonet clasp screw.

Curt

[Matthew Semple]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Did you mean "Lodgewood"?

Sure did mean Lodgewood instead of logwood. I was talking with Ben Tart before I typed that post. I guess I had logwood on the mind and did not even realize I had type the wrong thing. Sorry about the typo.

[MO-Pard]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Sure did mean Lodgewood instead of logwood. I was talking with Ben Tart before I typed that post. I guess I had logwood on the mind and did not even realize I had type the wrong thing. Sorry about the typo.

No Worries..... Figured that is what you meant, just wanted to be sure so someone down the road wants to know how to get in touch with them. Wasn't aware they did that type of work, and not real happy with the play in mine so may send mine off as a result now.

Thank you

Best Regards

[sauguszouave]

Re: Bayonet sizing?

Hallo!

"Cutting. — The bar is cut into suitable lengths by a large pair of shears worked by power, and is determined as follows: A tube containing water is capable of receiving 14 ounces of steel without causing the water to run over.
"The bar enters the tube, and when the water rises to the level the bar is cut off.
"The intention is that the same amount of stock shall 1 in each bar.

Curt

What a neat way to measure a certain weight of material off of a bar! Archimedes would be so proud.

Also wasn't aware that the sockets were actually wrought iron. The manuals I have simply say iron. Wrought iron is less brittle than cast or black iron and is also rust resistant. Very interesting. 3" Ordnance Rifles were made of wrought iron. Very expensive and difficult to work, but virtually indestructable.

Thank you so much for posting this.

Regards,

Paul Kenworthy