Knapsacks

[Danimal29]

Re: Knapsacks

This is my opinion on this issue and if you don't agree that's fine. Just as Charles Heath said, alot of new guys come here to get answers because they are not confident in getting them from their unit members or leadership. These fellas come here in hopes to get good answers, but instead many times just get smart ass replies. What purpose does that serve? All that will do is chase off new people to the forums that are really just looking to improve their impression by using this forum and the knowledge of many memebers on this forum. If a question is asked that you don't like or are sick of seeing, why can't you simply just simply keep your mouth shut and or ignore the post in general?

[dwinch]

Re: Knapsacks

I have to agree with everyone on the fact of doing a little research to show that you are prepared. That way you have an idea of the type of responses or direction you may receive. I have used the search function multiple times and have found it to be very helpful in avoiding those WMTB questions. BTW Thank you to all that have written articles of research, an information bananza, for this site.

I have been a member for more than a year, but I was a guest for the longest time and found this to be the best source of information around. Another source should be your unit C.O. or historian that can help you with clothing/item issuances. I am not trying to ridicule or "bite" your head off. Just remember that these guys have heard this question probably a hundred times and I have seen this style of question at least twice in the last week. IMHO it would probably be a good idea to have a FAQ page for WMTB type of questions. But again, I find the approved vendors to very helpful in the quest for comparison to an original. I hope this helps.

Dale Winch

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

One of the Very Traditional

ways new recruits learned was by being mentored by the veterans.

This wasn't altruistic it was survival on the part of the veterans, they couldn't afford the weak link that an untrained recruit was. Could get someone killed.

So along with the hazing came an imparting of wisdom.

In some ways I understand both sides of the argument.

Men who have spent time money and resources to learn the trade find that those who don't lazy and a waste of potentially valuable discussion space.

Yet in real life, the real CW a grizzled veteran was just as likely to grab the fresh fish by the knapsack straps and say "Listen stupid, this is how you put this on!" And the fresh fish expected that to happen.

Of course in real life the appropriate place to learn these lessons would have been camp before the battle. We do not have that luxury so I guess we have two options:

(1) Answer Question on the internet forums (impart your wisdom)

(2) Set up an 'authentic' School of the Soldier where these lessons will be imparted in person and see how many people attend.

Either way, orally imparting lessons learned and combat traditions was (AND IS) a huge part of how real armies operated. And that's what NCOs are supposed to excel at.

[dwinch]

Re: Knapsacks

Just as Mr. Heath and Danimal have stated about people being scarred off by smart alec comments. I am personally scarred to post with the same idea, so I do more PMing, after using the search function to contact the direct contact for information. I did this such thing for an enfield defarb help. I know that it was posted several times before the crash, but I went to the direct source that offered help with the said project. That way I would avoid some of the comments. I think that this is such a wealth of knowledge and its members make it so. Could this be how some of the resentment comes about between the mainstreamers and authentics? I appologize if I over step my bounds, but I would still be a mainstreamer if it wasn't for the kind mother henning I received from some of the groups in my area, and the hours and hours of research. I personally do not know any of you on the site, but I would respect you as if you were my best friend, because I look up to the members on this stie, kinda like a role model towards authenticity. Sorry to go on a rant and I appologize if I offended any of you.

Dale Winch

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Knapsacks

Part of the problem is people do not realize what this forum is truly about. So many forums are just filled with garbage and people love to contribute to it. They do not realize that it is different here. I can say from experience it takes some getting used to the atmosphere here. Once you do though it is not so bad and you grow to respect the wealth of knowledge here and even to enjoy the higher standards. At least in my case.

Now, there is a problem with going to ones nco's and officers for advice on the WHTB and so forth. If the person has been in a mainstream unit and they now want to start improving and branching out they have a problem. That person needs to find somewhere to go to start learning how to make the improvements and most likely they will not find the answers they are looking for in their current group. Also, part of the problem is the camp fire BS that I think was mentioned before. That stuff can be thick!! Of course, I admit that none of this is an excuse to take the easy road and not to do your own research. But like electricity man tends to try and find the path of least resistance.

[nc69th]

Re: Knapsacks

Okay I didn't ask to be tortured I just asked a simple question. I see the approved vendors list and actually looked through them before I posted. But the approved vendors just doesn't tell me much. I wanted to know from your guys experience in buying the equipment so I could make my own decision before buying from that vendor. And yes I know a little thing or to about what the 69th carried I did my research.

[styler]

Re: Knapsacks

Sometimes I wonder how much plagarism really REALLY goes on. Afterall we've all read the same books, worked the same museum collections, how much of what we discover is influenced by others we've encountered and how much of it is stolen word for word?

And when does being influenced cross the line to plagarism?

You answered that last question yourself: "how much of it is stolen word for word?" Being influenced or sharing interpretations isn't plagarism, nor is using or summarizing someone else's research or conclusions as long as you are crediting the person or source for all their hard work. It makes sense to use other's work as a stepping stone to one's own research. In fact, I would recommend that folks look at the citations and where possible go to the author's primary and interpretive secondary sources and see what ideas they come up with.

Crossing the line to plagarism is as great an act of will as performing original research is work. Unfortunately, what has happened recently isn't someone summarizing or reinterpreting previous work or taking other's research to follow new lines of thought. What has happened is someone took credit for someone else's work.

[45thnorth carolina]

Re: Knapsacks

The question of who makes the best is a matter of opinion. Its not a matter of who makes the best its a matter of who makes the most AUTHENTIC. Simply do the research and make a wise,informed purchase, make that purchase based on authenticity not who makes the best.Of course,more often than not the two go hand in hand. thomas roberts

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Knapsacks

John,

Then I'd look for that long-time hobbyist to write more than "who makes the best...?" by way of effectively communicating his question.

I agree. My point was not to defend the "Who makes the best..." type of post, or even to advocate the use of the A-C for "Mainstream deprogramming and info spoonfeeding" (certainly not!!). My point was merely to illustrate that pointing a guy to the approved vendor list does not give a person all the info they might need to make an informed purchase.

To Chawls:
I remember "The Awkward Squad" too! It got renamed. It is now called "Camp of Instruction" (the new name helps maintain the self-esteem of newbies, I guess). Isn't this thread located in CoI?

My most famous thread alert post on the Research forum is:
"? = CoI"

This is the place for questions. Initially, it that included dumbass newbie questions. (please take the "dumbass" part with a grain of salt)

Thanks!

[Csayankee]

Re: Knapsacks

You know being a member of this site for I don't know 4-5 years. I know that the questions of who makes the best at time can really get on your nerves. But look at it this way, Some people preferr to see and feel items (lets not get into the taking someone's words). But if you have a new person to this site, and they see this site as a way to improve, then we will get the questions.

Maybe if he asked in a different manner. Like can someone tell me the quality and testure of the X vendor, ground cloth. Would this not be the same question, but in a different light. I will admit to asking similar questions to people I know. I have never purchased anything from (lets just say) CJ Daily. I know what some say about his work and quality, but I might contact someone I know that has dealt with him for their opinion.

I agree some people just don't do research, I will admit that my time is so limited right now that I can't.

But if you did the research, you know how the item should be constructed and materials used. But you have two vendors with the right item. Maybe there is a slight cost difference or not. But wouldn't you like to know who really has the better quality.

Like someone said earlier, many units had newsletters and mentors. I know I had a mentor, and I have people in this hobby that have been around for many many years. All of them are my mentors, if I purchase an item I never had before, better believe I talk with them. I have purchased from an older vendor list, and found out the product I got was not right. But i didn't do the right research prior.

The post of people jumping on newbies is something that I think is really the black eye of the site at times. I know a person right now in the civilian section that never posts because once they asked a question of were to buy product. Some helped and others just got mad at them. But at the time the vendor list had no civilian vendors.

Here is some questions we could ask our selves which could help in this area and keep the posts after posts about people posting: (Almost like a Kaizen idea here for those who have done one)

1) Why do we get the Who makes the Best?
2) How do we stop this line of questioning.
3) Would a volunteer online mentor program be helpful to all new members to this side of the hobby?
4) Could there be a way to break the vendor list down into best products, or what the vendor carries. If I am looking for a childrens toy and I didn't know better, I might look at Jersey Skillet Licker. ( Like a search box for the vendors, you can type in Knapsack and only the vendors that carry them appear)

Other comments.....

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Knapsacks

alot of new guys come here to get answers because they are not confident in getting them from their unit members or leadership.

And the forum and its members is obligated to this how? I haven't looked lately, but some mods on this forum have (or had) in their posts' signature lines, "The AC Forum was not created with the beginner in mind."

These fellas come here in hopes to get good answers, but instead many times just get smart ass replies. What purpose does that serve?

We've had the discussion of missionary work on there for many, many years. If they want to know "who makes the best...?" then that's why the AC Forum mods created the "Approved Vendor List". Despite the fact it's highlighted at the top of every single AC Forum page, many folks can't be bothered to look at it. Read to find it? What's that mean?

And I ask, what purpose does it serve to allow these types of lazy, shall I say, dumb, questions, and thus scare off the longtime forum contributors? It's been happening for a couple years--as long as the AC Forum has been tolerating the current "some farbism is actually okay" and "welcome all" practice.

All that will do is chase off new people to the forums that are really just looking to improve their impression by using this forum and the knowledge of many memebers on this forum.

Since when is it the job of the forum members to help the folks at "Intro to Gear 101"? Frankly, that's why we wrote the CRRC--to make the basic info available to folks, and let the rest of us learn more together, as a community, instead of just seemingly always remaining at the "WMTB...?" stage.

If a question is asked that you don't like or are sick of seeing, why can't you simply just simply keep your mouth shut and or ignore the post in general?

Four points in reply to that:

1. Szabo's forum is good for those questions.

2. The AC Forum was not created with the beginner in mind.

3. Many of this forum's best contributors have already had enough of the dumb questions and don't come here or post here anymore. Allowing stupid questions seems like this forum is shooting itself in the foot.

4. Why do I have to "keep my mouth shut"? You and the folks who defend others' right to ask terminally stupid questions should also consider keeping quiet instead of defending the lazy, who don't usually support decent events anyway.

Sorry for the hard talk, but it's about time it was said again.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Knapsacks

This is the place for questions. Initially, it that included dumbass newbie questions. (please take the "dumbass" part with a grain of salt)

I disagree. This is the place for intelligent questions...not "dumbass" quetions. These questions don't have to be groundbreaking, but stuff like "WMTB" and "where do I buy period-style food?" are indeed dumbass questios, and that's not what the AC Forum was founded for--as Paul C has said many times in the past.

[Danimal29]

Re: Knapsacks

Kevin,

I'm sorry I have an opinion that doesn't match yours. After all you talk like you are the God of reenacting so whatever you have to say must be the gospel. This is the same reason I don't post a lot on this forum. Your attitude of it's not this person's or that person's responsibility to do this or that will kill this hobby. I don't consider it a responsibility I just consider it being nice and wanting to help out a fellow reenactor/living historian trying to better himeself. There might be many people that want to slaughter me after this post, so be it. As for that approved vendor list, it's not good enough to just refer someone to that. Just as John Wickett posted earlier, there are many other good vendors out there besides the ones on the approved vendor list.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Knapsacks

I disagree. This is the place for intelligent questions...not "dumbass" quetions. These questions don't have to be groundbreaking, but stuff like "WMTB" and "where do I buy period-style food?" are indeed dumbass questios, and that's not what the AC Forum was founded for--as Paul C has said many times in the past.

Kevin,

You misunderstood me: "The Awkward Squad" was created specifically so newbies could ask the questions that got on everyone's nerves without getting raked over the coals. That's a fact.

That folder was renamed "Camp of Instruction" and I do not think the old ideas of "The Awkward Squad" went with it. That's conjecture.

I completely agree with the examples of questions you gave. "Who makes the best widget?" is a lazy way to phrase a question, reflecting little or no forthought. I think this is what your issue is, correct?

However, I don't think it is out of bounds for guys to use the AC fora to discuss the advantages/disadvantages to different products on the market. There is really no place giving a really objective evaluation of products right now. This is my point.

You wanna know what really makes me mad? I ain't goin' to BGR!!!!!! :cry_smile

[Charles Heath]

Re: Knapsacks

I remember "The Awkward Squad" too! It got renamed. It is now called "Camp of Instruction" (the new name helps maintain the self-esteem of newbies, I guess).

John,

I remember the great self-esteem debate with a giant chuckle, too. On one hand people who were in units where not one human being had the energy, aptitude, or inclination to know anything about anything were somehow offended that their incredibly stupid question would be placed in a folder entitled "The Awkward Squad." Methinks they probably couldn't even name the book from whence that phrase arrived.

Jim Kindred's point about the AC Forum not being for beginners is on target, but as other folks have mentioned, the steady stream of the clueless arriving on the AC Forum doorstep is but a symptom of just how bad things have become over in the Farb, Mainstream, and to some extent, the Authenticist wing of the hobby. The folks who used to be able to answer questions in those groups have simply moved up or moved on. Part of that hobby has slid downhill in many areas, and part of that same hobby has figured out by buying blindly on the AC Classifieds (a hobby within the hobby) that their material culture (on the surface) will greatly improve.

It's just an extension of the great debate.