Right Shoulder Shift

[buckandball]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

So... what I got from this link is don't get fat and out of shape? Did I miss something?

;)

[Illini77]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

As mentioned above, Scott's also describes this method of R-S-S, specifically, School of the Soldier, Part II.
"To right shoulder, shift- ARMS.
*One time and one motion.
246. (Pl. IX, fig. 2.) Turn the piece with the left hand, the lock to the front, seize it at the same time with the right hand at the handle, place it on the right shoulder, the left hand not
quitting the butt, the cock above and resting on the shoulder, the muzzle up; sustain the piece in this position by placing the right hand on the flat of the butt, so that the toe of the butt may be between the first two fingers, the other two on the butt plate; let fall the left hand by the side."

Are we sure Scott's description has the barrel to the rear? The important phrases are "lock to the front" and "cock above and resting on the shoulder." One might read the cock being on shoulder and assume it means like Baxter, but it is not clear.

After saying lock to the front, does it ever say to twist or turn the rifle in any way? No. That means when you place it on your right shoulder, lock is still forward and barrel to the side, just like Hardee/Casey.

The only hang up here is how do you have barrel to side and cock on shoulder? Only way I see this being possible is if you rotate your right wrist (and thus rifle) clockwise so that the cock does indeed rest on the shoulder.

[Silas]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift



Link to the plate : https://books.google.com/books?id=vP...epage&q&f=true

To enlarge the tiny illustration, hover your mouse over it and bingo! There you go. Big size.

[Illini77]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51749[/ATTACH]

Link to the plate : https://books.google.com/books?id=vP...epage&q&f=true

To enlarge the tiny illustration, hover your mouse over it and bingo! There you go. Big size.

Thanks Silas. I think the bayonet in this plate confirms my opinion that Scott RSS is in fact barrel to the side like Casey/Hardee. If the barrel was to the rear, you would not see the elbow of the bayonet as it would be coming directly at you.

The more interesting question is WHY did Baxter choose to make his RSS different than everyone else? Did he misunderstand Scott? Did he misunderstand the French? Was he just a RSS rebel?

[dgriego]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

The illustration Does not show the hammer hooked onto the top of the shoulder. After studying the pictures, and the text, and putting it into practice, I am seeing that what I think may not totally be correct, and neither is the other way.

There is no evidence in the text that says the rifle is turned lockplate out (to the front), and then turned again so the barrel is to the rear. It does say "Hammer resting on the shoulder", but I don't think that is the intention of the French text this is lifted from. I think it is supposed to be hammer "above" the shoulder, or hammer "uppermost". Scott may have used a poor choice of words. This is where my concession comes in, though, because the manual states what the manual states...

Here are details from the the illustrations that show that this rifle is not sitting lockplate to the side (to the right) when at right shoulder shift:

First the trail arms trigger\hammer area (rotated 90 degrees so the trigger guard is up):



The hammer is plainly seen on the back. The trigger and guard are plainly seen on top. The outline of the lockplate is easily visible. Now the hammer\trigger area of the right shoulder shift picture:



In this cropped picture, you can see hammer is pointing toward you, which would put it going to the right. There is no outline of the lockplate because it is up. The trigger and guard you are seeing is an oblique view of it from this angle of viewing. right above the hammer, you see a small right angle where the barrel ends and a sliver of the stock that you could only see if you were looking at it from above the hammer.

The next area is the barrel:



On the trail arms barrel, you can see distincly this is a view from the side of the rifle. You can plainly see the barrel to the rear, and the stock to the front. You can see side of the nosecap, and the details there.

The next picture is the barrel of the right shoulder shift rifle:



Since you are looking at the barrel from the top, there are no delineations for the stock. All you see is barrel and the barrel bands, and the details of the top of the nosecap.

The next picture is the trail arms bayonet compared to the right shoulder shift bayonet. The first shank curves toward you as it should if you are looking at the side of the rifle. The other shank curves up just like it should if you were looking at the top of the rifle because it is turned sideways:



The next picture is another plate from the manual with our view of the rifles from the bottom, or rammer side of the rifles. The bayonets curve to our left just as they should:



The rifle may actually be angled on the shoulder. Not actually flat sideways as in Hardee's, or barrel to the rear as in Baxter's. In my practicing, this is the only natural way to bring the rifle to the right shoulder easily, and end up with the hammer "resting" on the shoulder. It is not very comfortable, but that may be why they went with flat on the shoulder later on. The angle may actually be caused by wearing gear, because these illustrations show guys with very thick collars. That would cause a rifle to angle instead of lay flat.

[dgriego]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

The problem with comparing the Right Shoulder Shift position in different manuals, is they use different motions based on the type of infantry being drilled. Heavy infantry, or infantry of the line, shoulder their arms on the left side. Light infantry shoulder their arms on the right side. Therefore, it is hard to compare motions between the two when it involves shoulder arms.

Something I noticed when looking for more information on Scott's Right Shoulder Shift is that starting at Support Arms, the description in Hardee's\Casey's of going to Right Shoulder Shift is almost identical to Scott's description of starting at shoulder arms on the left side, and also going to Right Shoulder Shift. Here are the relevant paragraphs:

From Scott's 1835 (Starting at Shoulder Arms on the left side):


In Hardee's 1855 manual, starting at Support Arms (The first motion of this movement sets up to be the same position as being at shoulder arms on the left side while grabbing the rifle with the right hand at the handle):


Paragraph 210 just says:


These descriptions are consistent with each other in describing the rifle sitting sideways, lockplate up for Right Shoulder Shift in both manuals. There really is no way to do these motions without letting go of the butt with the left hand, which the instructions specifically say. It also not likely two almost identical descriptions of this motion would end up with two different positions of the rifle when executed. The more likely conclusion is the rifles end up in exactly the same position.

[dgriego]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

Another problem...

Comparing Scott's and Hardee's is comparing a translation of one manual with a translation of another manual, since these are just lifted verbatim from the French. Comparing these same paragraphs in the French manuals would be an apples-to-apples comparison of their intent. Since Scott translated the French 1831 manual for his 1835 tactics, and Hardee translated the French 1845 manual for his 1855 tactics, comparing the French 1831 and 1845 manuals would be appropriate.

Here are the relevant paragraphs:

French 1831:


Translated as:

157. Turn the weapon with the left hand, the plate above; Grasp it at the same time with the right hand at the handle, wear it on the right shoulder, left hand not leaving the butt, the hammer above, the Tip of barrel in the air; Hold the weapon in this position, placing the right hand on the plate of the butt, so that the spout is between the first two fingers, and the other fingers are under the butt; drop the left hand by the side.

The French 1845 manual (Note that the first movement is started at support arms):


Translated as:

First movement.
162. Seize the weapon with the right hand, below and against the left forearm, place the left hand under the butt, the palm of the hand against the outer flat; The heel between the first and the second finger, the last two under the butt.

Second movement.
163. Turn the weapon with the left hand, along with the right hand, the plate above, carry it on the right shoulder, the left hand not leaving the butt, the hammer above, the end of the barrel in the air; Hold the weapon in this position, placing the right hand on the plate of the butt, as it is prescribed in 157.

Paragraph 157 states:

"...placer en même temps la main droite sur le plat de la crosse, de manière que le bec se trouve entre les deux premiers doigts, et les deux derniers sous la crosse."

Translated as:

"...At the same time place the right hand on the plate of the butt, so that the spout is between the first two fingers and the last two under the butt."

These manuals are describing the same motion in almost identical terms. Here they are compared line-by-line (The 1845 manual starts at the second motion):

French 1831: 157. Tourner l’arme avec la main gauche...

French 1845: 163. Tourner l'arme avec la main gauche...

Identical. saying to turn the rifle with the left hand.

...la platine en dessus; la saisir en même temps avec la main droite à la poignée...

...dans la main droite, la platine en dessus,...

Pretty much identical, but saying it in a different order. Since the 1831 manual starts at shoulder arms on the left, it is saying to grab the handle with the right hand. In the 1845 manual, the right hand is already holding the handle, and it is clarifying to turn the rifle in the right hand. Both say to turn the rifle lockplate above (or to the front), "la platine en dessus."

...la porter sur l’épaule droite, la main gauche ne quittant pas la crosse,...

...la porter sur l'épaule droite, la main gauche ne quittant pas la crosse,...

Identical. Here it is saying to carry the rifle to the right shoulder, the left hand not leaving the butt.

...le chien en dessus...

...le chien en dessus...

Identical. Here it is saying that the hammer should be above (to the front, on top of).

...le bout du canon en l’air...

...le bout du canon en l'air...

Identical. "The end of the barrel in the air".

...contenir l’arme dans cette position, en plaçant la main droite sur le plat de la crosse...

...contenir l'arme dans cette position, en plaçant la main droite sur le plat de la crosse...

Identical. "Hold the weapon in this position, placing the right hand on the plate of the butt".

...de manière que le bec se trouve entre les deux premiers doigts, et que les autres doigts soient sous la crosse...

...en plaçant la main droite sur le plat de la crosse, comme il est prescrit 157...

...de manière que le bec se trouve entre les deux premiers doigts, et les deux derniers sous la crosse.

Virtually identical. the second quote includes the relevant paragraph 157. They are basically identical. It is saying to put the beak between the first two fingers. The difference is the 1845 manual says to put the last two fingers under the butt, the 1831 manual simply states to put the other fingers under the butt.

From the line-by-line study of these two manuals, one that Scott was based on, and one that Hardee was based on, here are the important points showing these positions are identical:

1. Both French manuals refer to "le chien en dessus", translated as "the hammer above (to the front, on top of). Scott translated this as "the cock above and resting on". Hardee translated this as meaning the "lockplate upwards". These are two opinions on the orientation of the hammer and lockplate. The French are consistent in their wording. The 1845 illustration for Right Shoulder Shift is definitive. The 1831 illustration seems to be in contention, but along with all other evidence, is showing the same position as the 1845 manual.

2. Both French manuals contain the phrase "sous la crosse" at the end when describing how the fingers of the right hand should hold the butt. "Sous la crosse" translates literally as "under the butt". Scott translated this as "on the butt", Hardee translated it correctly as "under the butt". The French, again being consistent, say under the butt in both manuals. Performing Right Shoulder Shift according to Baxter (barrel to the rear, hammer hooked on the shoulder), it is impossible to put the other two fingers under the butt.

3. Since the French described right shoulder shift almost identically between their older 1831 manual and newer 1845 manual, the illustrations should also, therefore, show the same rifle orientation. The 1845 clearly shows the orientation (without the tilt toward the rear). Studying the 1831 illustrations (which are identical to Scott's 1835 illustrations) it is evident the rifle is lockplate up (to the front) when comparing the illustration with hammer orientation on the trail arms illustration that is right next to it on the page.

[dgriego]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

Here is where I believe the confusion on Right Shoulder Shift came from:

1. Scott intended his right shoulder shift to be identical to what is in Hardee's.

2. Baxter (using the same thinking as modern reenactors) misinterpreted Scott's description and illustration, and created a new right shoulder shift that was incorrect (Hammer hooked on the shoulder, barrel to the rear).

3. The French independently corrected the confusing 1831 illustration in their 1845 manual. Hardee dutifully copied the newer illustration in his 1855 manual.

What does all this mean to living historians trying to create the best impression possible?

1. Doing Right Shoulder Shift according to Baxter (hammer hooked on the shoulder) is not an anachronism. There is documented evidence they got it wrong back then.

2. There are overwhelmingly more pictures showing correct right shoulder shift than Baxter's version.

3. Unless there is evidence stating a company drilled according to Baxter (or some other manual that has that same description), then doing Right Shoulder Shift according to Hardee when drilling Scott's is more correct.

[Andrew Keehan]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

If only there were more/better images of the boys of '46-'48 under arms, we might then know whether the misapprehension predates Baxter. I confess I have been doing it the Baxter way in my Mex War unit for ages, and have taught it that way. Thanks for looking more carefully at the diagrams than apparently I ever have. I think the description in Scott could be read any number of ways, but the plate seems quite clear based on the position of the bayonet. Great discussion!

[dgriego]

Re: Right Shoulder Shift

Thanks, Andrew!

I've been looking for images or illustrations from that time period, but you're right, there aren't any.