My Mean Old Mainstream Unit Won't Let Me Use a Rifle

[bushwacker]

Gents,
I have been looking at a lot of old Brady images and am noticed, Maybe for the first time, that there were a huge ammount of two banders with saber bayonets. Although mainly in the Federal ranks. Is this just because I have been looking for it, or was it more common than we had previously thought? I have also noticed them randomly in images a such as the popular image of the dead Confederate in the sunken road, or ditch at "Chancellorsville or Fredricksburg" I can't remember.

Clayton Perry

[LWhite64]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

They were more common than some believe. One problem is that most records dont record short vs long enfields, etc.

Lee

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

Unfortunately, I believe it's a modern mainstream supported misconception that these 2-banded weapons weren't prevalent. Since some 80-90% of people that play dress-up support events that require 3-banded weapons, 2-banded weapons like the enfield and mississippi rifles fall by the wayside and are forgotten about.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

23rd VA Regt.

[Johan Steele]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

The M1841 was very prevelant through Western Fed Regiments and were still in heavy use as late as Chattanooga by some AoT US units. I've ot found as much data on the P56 2 band Enfield in US service as CS, but that said foar more of those "Jaeger" Austrians ended up in US than CS service... and almost none for sharpshooter use but for Cav... particularly out on the frontier.

I know McAulay's excellent work has some details on what US units were carrying assorted 2 banders. There are other works as well though I cannot recall the title off hand.

McAulay, John D., Rifles of the U.S. Army 1861-1906, Andrew Mowbray Publishers, 2003.

[Poor Private]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

I believe that the prevalent use of 3 banders by reenacting units is due to some safety factors... How many of us have seen improper firing of the musket by the rear ranks by being to far away from the front rank causing powder burns on the front ranks , or temporary deafness.
If there is documented use by your unit then I feel that it is a proper weapon to use while in the field, but safety issues have to be maintained.

Cris Westphal
1st. Mich Vol.
"Thank god for Michigan" A. Lincoln

[Tom Ezell]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

Remember that Hardee's Rifle and Light Infantry Tactics was written for the use of the M1841 and M1855 rifles, and that images from this doctrine were carried forward into Casey's 1862 Infantry Tactics. The term rifle in military doctrine from this time period usually refers to what we call "two-banders;" "three-banders" are more properly referred to as muskets or rifle-muskets.

It's also worthwhile to note that a large number of the Confederate-designed and -manufactured small arms were based on the M1841 and M1855 rifle patterns, indicating the utility and popularity of these weapons.

The sabre-bayonet is something altogether different, though... and being one of those hermaphrodite devices, isn't that good a bayonet nor is it that good a sabre, being designed to try to fit both purposes.

The current prejudice against rifles in re-enactor ranks stems from two sources: First, an effort from the early day of the hobby to reduce or eliminate the use of the repro Remington Zouave rifles which were probably one of the first available weapons offered by modern musket vendors, and secondly because of the perception that it's unsafe to fire these weapons from the rear rank. This is due more to the sorry manner in which we teach and lead drill and tactics more than anything else, as noted above, the manuals we're supposed to be using are written for the two-banders, to include firing either on the skirmish line or in regimental line-of-battle. The most common admonition that I've seen in drill instruction over the past ten years tries to emphasize placing your file partner's ear somewhere around the middle band of your musket, while every tactics manual I've read simply states that there must be THIRTEEN (13) INCHES interval between the front and rear rank.

Me, I added an M1841 to my collection last year, and have not had problems with it... to include being a rear-ranker in nearly every instance. You just have to learn the manuals properly, follow them scrupulously, and exercise common sense.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

Unfortunately, I believe it's a modern mainstream supported misconception that these 2-banded weapons weren't prevalent. Since some 80-90% of people that play dress-up support events that require 3-banded weapons, 2-banded weapons like the enfield and mississippi rifles fall by the wayside and are forgotten about.

It's funny that this subject should come up right now. I'm currently "re-investigating" our unit's standards and found several flaws (huh, imagine that.. In a mainstream group?? NO WAY! ;) ). One of which happened to be the weapons sent to Charlottesville, Va. from the Richmond Arsenal.

I've found that nearly all the weapons sent to our regiment's companies were mostly flint lock muskets. These most likely being the M1795 US Springfield Musket, M1816 Us Springfield Musket, or the M1840 US Flint Musket. However, our unit was issued M1841 Mississippi Rifles. Like Mr. Boulden has mentioned, I'd obviously purchase one in a heartbeat but since safety regulations prevent me from using one in the field, it just won't work out. I guess the main conflict is for some historical accuracy in relation to everyone's safety..*sigh* But, it just comes to show that even though we automatically think Springfields & Enfields were two of the most common weapons, that was NOT the case for everyone.

I'd also like to refer people to the "Documenting the American South" webpage that has the Richmond Arsenal Military and Naval Preparations for anyone who interested in early war Virginia infantry impressions. Listed are goods delivered to a myriad of Virginia towns and counties in 1861.

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

Regards,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

Jason,

To clarify, I am of the opinion that mainstream units don't allow two-banded weapons as a matter of safety. Not belonging to one of those units, the use of a two-banded weapon at events I attend would not be an issue of firing in the front or the rear rank.

While some good documented insight might yet come from this thread, I fear that this is already turning into a mainstream vs. campaigner discussion of what is right vs. wrong.

My comment earlier was only to sight where the common misconception for the use of these arms may have originated within the hobby as a whole.

Without a stronger focus on documented use of these weapons, this thread is probably not appropriate for these boards.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04
23rd VA Regt.

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

Mr. Boulden,

Oh, I agree completely. & you're right, it is a matter of safety or so I hear. I was just stating my own dilemma with using a two-bander, specifically the Mississippi. There's already been another thread long enough for a lifetime on that matter. No, I feel like this thread is focused on and should be focused on as you say, the conflict of their usage.

Regards,

[Wild Rover]

Re: My Mean Old Mainstream Unit Won't Let Me Use a Rifle

It is not a safety issue, but rather a dumbing down issue. A way to accomidate the "slacker reenactor"

Just like the dumbing down of tactics, manuvers or scenarios.

We welcome rifles in the CVG and the events we work on.

Pards,

[Charles Heath]

Re: 2 banders with Saber Bayonets

While some good documented insight might yet come from this thread, I fear that this is already turning into a mainstream vs. campaigner discussion of what is right vs. wrong.

Paul,

Very well stated, along with Tom and Lee's comments. Think this thread needs a gym locker combination lock or something with a padlock and bicycle chain?

Folks, one of the ways to break out of the farb, and mainstream cycle of self-hate, history mystery, documentation anemia, and gear envy is to attend better events. A heck of a lot of folks in the top four levels of the hobby own and use percussion rifles, shotguns, and even flintlocks at the better events. Sharpened sticks and farm implements, too, but let's not go down that path today. This is not new material.

Leaving behind the campfire BS of the mainstream and reaping the benefits of history is nothing new. If you don't go, or you won't go to the better events, then you don't know. Even some of the mainstream makeover events in the I-81 corridor south of the Mason-Dixon Line have been moving towards clarifying their arbitrary and capricious rules on long arms.

Was there something in the coffee this morning?