British Enlistedmans Pants

[Marylander in Grey]

Greetings,
I am wondering if anyone has information on imported British enlisted mans pants. I used the search feature with no success. EOG shows a pair belonging to GEN Dorsey Pender of North Carolina. This is the only reference I have. I would like to learn more please.

[brown]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

If I remember correctly, the Museum of the Confederacy has some limited amounts of info about those trowsers deep inside their website. Let us know what you find.

[CSchneider]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Pender's trousers are imported and are marked "Campbell & Co." The MOC published a catalogue of the uniforms in their collection a few years ago. You might want to check that out.

-Craig Schneider

[Iron Scout]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Gents
Just as a side note, about 8250 pairs of these trousers in Royal blue were imported in 1862. The first shipment per the McRae Papers and also the OR's shows only one bulk shipment of trousers being made per the Justitia in November, 1862. It is also documented that they arrived in the Southern states onboard the Cornubia as one bulk order. Interesting! A side note too is that Royal blue cloth was coming through the blockade in bulk per the earliest McRae invoices Nov & Dec 1861. Such cloth would have certainly seen the field from CS QM's.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Michael McComas]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

I have a couple pair of British enlisted trousers from different time periods. The pattern has changed remarkably little in the last century and a half.

They're made from a saxon blue wool, mule ear pockets a little different from typical Confederate make, canton flannel in the waist band and crotch, iron buttons (I believe), some with stripes or piping down the seam, some without.

Email me at p58enfield@rica.net and I'll send you some pictures.

Cheers,

Michael

[jacobite8749]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Is it posible for you to post some photos? Be very interested in the colour. Many thanks.

[DBURT]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Michael,
Just to back up what John says, could you post these pics?
I too, would be interested in the colour, and the "iron" buttons.
Dave Burt ACWS, ACWRT, UK.

[roundshot]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfp...ABASE=60356562,

Check these as well. While the artifact description says these are "Federal Trousers," the actual description of them with linen lining and back adjustment belt indicate that they probably are not. You can decide for yourself but these may well be imported.

[1stMaine]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Comrades,

I also owned a pair of saxon blue English trousers. These were easily mistaken for federal issue at a distance, except for the darker shade of blue than issue Federal pants.

The pair that I owned had suspender and fly buttons of an identical pattern and size to the federal issue trouser buttons, EXCEPT that they had thin wood backs instead of paper, and the metal was black enameled.

They had waistband, pockets, fly lining, etc, same as for Federal issue, EXCEPT that it was made of a domet flannel like material. There was also a circular piece of the same material in the crotch.

The major visible difference between my tousers and the Federal pattern was that, where the Federal had a top button on the waistband, the English version had a cotton twill tape drawstring. This drawstring went all the way around the top of the waistband, as in a pair of modern sweat pants, and was tacked in place at the op of the rear seam. Both of the exit holes where the drawstring came out were hand-sewn with dark blue thread. In fact, ALL of the button holes were of dark blue thread, whereas the rest of the pant was sewn with white thread.

Respects,

[PanzerJager]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfp...ABASE=60356562,

Check these as well. While the artifact description says these are "Federal Trousers," the actual description of them with linen lining and back adjustment belt indicate that they probably are not. You can decide for yourself but these may well be imported.

Bob,

I spent a whole afternoon viewing, handling and measuring the May trousers. You are right, they are not federal trousers, the museum website is incorrect. I think who ever originally entered the data for the museum archive assumed they where federal issue because they appear to be made of Sky Blue Kersey. My opinion is that time and wear faded them out from the original “royal” blue color.

The trousers themselves where in pretty rough shape when the museum received them, since there has been heavy conservation work done to them. The entire inside is lined are lined as part of the conservation work and the waist lining has been heavily damaged by moths.

I took detailed notes, measurements and photographs of the trousers when I viewed them. They are entirely hand sewn with thread that has not oxidized to brown. The original color of the thread was electric blue, I found this out when I looked in the pocket and found a small piece of thread that had come loose. The part of the thread that had been exposed was brown while the part that had been covered and not exposed was still a bright blue color.

I would be interested in comparing the notes with anyone who has viewed the pair in the Museum of the Confederacy, the ones that are featured in EOG. The pairs of trousers appear to be identical in all aspects.

On another note does anyone know a source for a few yards of British royal blue kersey? I have long wanted to make a copy of the May trousers.

Regards,

[nick19thind]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

They were dark blue with a red stripe down the leg.
The queen's guards in London use the same pattern today.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

For what it's worth, Woolrich* has several shades of blue kersey that may be appropriate for use in reproduction British trousers. I myself have been thinking of making myself a pair but I am unsure which sample, if any, match an original pair.

If someone who has seen an original pair of English trousers would like samples let me know and I can mail them out.

Brian White
Wambaugh, White, & Co.

*Before someone chimes in about the fiber content of Woolrich kersey...yes, I know.

[1stMaine]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Brian,

The pair that I once owned was very, very close to this Woolrich color:

Style Id: 5100216
Color/Pattern: 216 MORNING SKY

It was a very electric blue sort of saxon blue/sky blue. It passed very well as a "private purchase" pair of trousers.

FWIW, When I was in England just a few years back, you could still purchase these same trousers at surplus stores for around 12 pounds sterling/pair, or, about $22.00..... Just sayin'.....

Respects,

[jacobite8749]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Mr Kindred, what I am wondering, in view of the fact I can not think of one Regt. who wears or who wore royal blue trousers in the British Army that these may be in fact hospital issue. Also in light of your description that they have a draw cord goes along with this.

In the Napoleonic pperiod, and in WW1 recuperating soldiers in long term hospital care wore a "sky blue" uniform with white facings, topped by their Regt. side cap. I understand this was so that local public houses and others could identify them.

I have been trying to get the Army Medical museum to confirm that they continued this prcatice in the 1860's and indeed into modern times, but as yet have had no luck.

[1stMaine]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Comrade,

In fact, you are spot on. These were listed on the table as "hospital trousers" at the surplus store in London. The owner said he had boxes of them. I assumed these were for "Hospital Regiments" or some such article as our "Invalid Corps", they also wearing sky blue uniforms.

Interesting, most interesting..... the plot thickens.

As I said, though, these were excellent stand-ins for a private-purchase type of trouser for a Federal officer impression, and I snatched them up.

Respects,