British Enlistedmans Pants

[jacobite8749]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

It would not suprise me that Samuel Isaac would pull such a stunt. In fact that was what I was hoping to find. They are still well made, and I have used them years ago (never realising that I may have been wearing the right stuff out of ignorance). I have seen WW1 hospital trousers, and they have a very nice jacket with white lining.

The problem of drunken soldiers was bad enough, but invalid ones based in hospitals was worse, lots of time on their hands, no NCO's to control them or issue punishments, this was no doubt their idea of sorting them out. Anyone n a blue suit, do not serve them.

[CARY MEADOWS]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Does anyone know a vendor who makes reproduction British Import Saxon Blue Trousers with the Isaac & Campbell stamp?
Cary Meadows

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Neill/All-

Has your research found any other colors to British Enlisted pants besides the "saxon blue" color? You mentioned once to me last we talked about an "Oxford Grey" the McRae papers mentions...

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[Iron Scout]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Johnny,

There are three colors listed as purchased by Huse in the McRae Papers-blue/grey, Oxford and Royal blue. All are pretty much listed specifically by name. You also see serge, facing cloth, knapsack cloth, etc. but these of course are different items all together. I'd really shy away from the use of terminology such as "Saxon blue". You never see this mentioned.

The only problem with the Woolrich cloth is the 15% 'funny'. It has a comparable weight, nap, color, etc compared to the originals I've seen. No matter what your opinion on the use of such cloth, they do make up a nice pair of trousers.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

The only problem with the Woolrich cloth is the 15% 'funny'. It has a comparable weight, nap, color, etc compared to the originals I've seen. No matter what your opinion on the use of such cloth, they do make up a nice pair of trousers.

Neill Rose
PLHA

Neill,

Woolrich has now started producing two of their cloths in 100% wool. In recent contact with them, they have said this is a "testing the waters" run of cloth...if it does well, then they may very well expand their "new" 100% line of cloth into other shades/weights. I have the swatches at home, but I believe it is their "Civil War Blue" and "Navy Blue" wools...one must specify they want the 100% wool cloth as they intend to keep their blended wool on the market for now.

I believe Chris Sullivan of Stoney Brook is now making federal uniforms out of this "new" cloth from Woolrich.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Any evidence on the "Oxford Grey" pants construction, Neill? I love the royal blue pants and it would be especially neat to see repros of the English import "Oxford Grey" pants.

Thanks- Johnny

[Iron Scout]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Well,

I think we need to find two things first:

a) define what "Oxford Grey" really is ie. color/shade
b) attempt to find a period garment out of said material

The definitions of Oxford I've seen mention a dark, charcoal grey color. Paul, great news on the Woolrich wool. Why not take point on that for us!

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Neill, I know Alfred May's pants have been discussed briefly by others but what is your opinion of them (and do they fit into this discussion)?

NCMoH, Raleigh. http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfp...ABASE=74244822,

[CSchneider]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

After having examined both of those pieces, it seems as though they were of domestic manufacture out of imported materials.

The trousers were constructed in the strangest manner. They were intended to be side-seam pocket trousers when cut, but were constructed with "mule ear" style pockets instead. The facings look quite odd due to this. The button fly was also sewn in much lower than was intended, causing it to extend past the buttonhole fly and nearly over the rear seam of of the trousers. While the stitching itself was well executed, due to these and several other oddities, it seems like they were constructed by someone who had never made a pair of trousers before.

-Craig Schneider

[Peachfuz]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

I think we need to define what “British import trousers” are as well. In all of the trousers I’ve viewed, I have yet to find a construction detail that would preclude them from being possible domestic manufacture. Less officer trousers such as the Selden and Hughes, of course.
Garrison, to answer your question I think the May trousers are domestic manufacture and the wool fabric is most likely imported. I also think that the May jacket is an altered NC pattern, but that is for another discussion. As a side note, Mr. May’s shelter half is just about one of the coolest things I’ve ever gotten to examine.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Gents
Just as a side note, about 8250 pairs of these trousers in Royal blue were imported in 1862. The first shipment per the McRae Papers and also the OR's shows only one bulk shipment of trousers being made per the Justitia in November, 1862. It is also documented that they arrived in the Southern states onboard the Cornubia as one bulk order. Interesting! A side note too is that Royal blue cloth was coming through the blockade in bulk per the earliest McRae invoices Nov & Dec 1861. Such cloth would have certainly seen the field from CS QM's.

Neill Rose
PLHA

Interesting, as there is a uniform at The Hall of Valor, New Market State Historic Battlefield Park; belonging to a captain killed at Sharpsburg.

His jacket appears to be made of a coarse-weave, blue-grey English Kersey.

His trousers appear to be made of "royal-blue" cloth. If this uniform indeed belonged to said Capt...this would place the date on the uniform ca. 1862...

Granted he was an officer...but the colors of uniforms we typically think of as a "late-war" uniform pieces would have been in service early on.

Perhaps one of my brothers will be able to provide more information on the uniform?

[Peachfuz]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

VMI Archives
Jame Henry Reid Papers
Manuscript #0222.
Letter, 1862 Aug 18.
V.M.I. Aug 18 1862
Dear Pa
The desk &c was recd safely Saturday morning. I walked down to the landing & got it myself, had to pay 50cts on it. All the things were in good order. Your letter & Ma's were safely recd.,stamps, $2, buttons, shirts &c. Very much obliged for the apples & sugar, do not know what to do with the sugar unless I eat it so, No I will not do that, I will take it down to Mess Hall tonight & sweeten my milk with it and have a sort of Ice Cream.
One of my roommates Read S has gone to Lynchburg (you have probably seen him before this) on furlough. Please send by him some undershirts for it is very cold up here. I was on guard about 2'oclock last night & had nothing but my white clothes on, I very near froze. I would write for my thick winter coat but Gen. Smith recd a letter yesterday from Charleston saying the cloth had run the blockade & arrived safely. It will be here in a few days, so I will try & stand it as my order for Jacket, pants & overcoat is 3rd in the list & Mr. Vanderslice will soon make it. Gen. Smith says he has $30,000 worth of cloth about 15,000 yards or more because it did not cost $2 per yard in Europe.
Don't forget my buttons, send them by Read. Also $10 for mattress, chair &c. Send my other blanket as soon as you can, but do not pay a big price for me. I would rather wait a while. My left little finger has been broke, but I am in hopes it will soon be well. My eye is well but some of the old cadets who have been on furlough & returned are very hard on Rats & I heard
a cadet say this morning "I pity the Rats now."
I will answer Ma's letter before long. I have now written four letters in a week so you must make them last for sometime.
Write often,
Your affectionate son
J. Henry Reid

http://www.vmi.edu/uploadedFiles/Archives/Manuscripts/00222Reid/ReidPapers_fulltext.pdf

I like this letter as it shows that 15,000 yards of fabric ($30,000/$2) that came over as essentially a private purchase in Aug. of ’62.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

VMI Archives
Jame Henry Reid Papers
Manuscript #0222.
Letter, 1862 Aug 18.
V.M.I. Aug 18 1862
Dear Pa
The desk &c was recd safely Saturday morning. I walked down to the landing & got it myself, had to pay 50cts on it. All the things were in good order. Your letter & Ma's were safely recd.,stamps, $2, buttons, shirts &c. Very much obliged for the apples & sugar, do not know what to do with the sugar unless I eat it so, No I will not do that, I will take it down to Mess Hall tonight & sweeten my milk with it and have a sort of Ice Cream.
One of my roommates Read S has gone to Lynchburg (you have probably seen him before this) on furlough. Please send by him some undershirts for it is very cold up here. I was on guard about 2'oclock last night & had nothing but my white clothes on, I very near froze. I would write for my thick winter coat but Gen. Smith recd a letter yesterday from Charleston saying the cloth had run the blockade & arrived safely. It will be here in a few days, so I will try & stand it as my order for Jacket, pants & overcoat is 3rd in the list & Mr. Vanderslice will soon make it. Gen. Smith says he has $30,000 worth of cloth about 15,000 yards or more because it did not cost $2 per yard in Europe.
Don't forget my buttons, send them by Read. Also $10 for mattress, chair &c. Send my other blanket as soon as you can, but do not pay a big price for me. I would rather wait a while. My left little finger has been broke, but I am in hopes it will soon be well. My eye is well but some of the old cadets who have been on furlough & returned are very hard on Rats & I heard
a cadet say this morning "I pity the Rats now."
I will answer Ma's letter before long. I have now written four letters in a week so you must make them last for sometime.
Write often,
Your affectionate son
J. Henry Reid
http://www.vmi.edu/uploadedFiles/Arc...s_fulltext.pdf

Rich,

We must be careful in sighting letters about the VMI Orders from England when we talk about cloth. In reviewing the Order Books from 1860-1862, Smith specifies Cadet-Grey cloth. It's important we don't get this mixed up with the "other" english cloth and fabrics being ordered, i.e. Oxford-Grey/Royal Blue.

Among things the Institute was ordering from overseas during the War; cloth, linen, buttons, pickled beef, potatoes...

A note on the buttons Cadet J.H. Read mentioned...if you read his other letters, it appears he was a bit of an entrepeneur...He asking his parents to acquire the buttons and send them to him, at which point he sells them off to his classmates...not sure what they did with the buttons once recieving these, as they were most likely VA buttons and not the Institute buttons.

Paul B.

[1stMaine]

Re: British Enlistedmans Pants

Neill, I know Alfred May's pants have been discussed briefly by others but what is your opinion of them (and do they fit into this discussion)?

NCMoH, Raleigh. http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfp...ABASE=74244822,

Comrade,

I am just going from memory here, as i no longer posses the pants, but the ones I had were identical in colour to these.

What was interesting to me was that the pants were of this colour and the lining and facings were a combination of cotton drill and domet flannel. The pockets and fly had cotton drill, and the waistband and crotch piece (an oval piece sewn into the crotch) were of domet flannel.

Just a FWIW observation.