Color Sergeants with weapons

[garyjd]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

I want to observe here that this discusion strikes me as akin to the common discussion (common on some forums, that is) of artillery reenactors asking if Civil War artillerymen carried carbines, pistols, etc. "for defense". Just like artillerymen had this weapon called a cannon for "self defense" (much more effective than a pistol or carbine, and quicker to load most of the time!), a color bearer did not fight or "defend" himself per se--the rest of the regiment, particularly the armed men in the color guard--was charged with defending the flags.

Had someone asked me if color bearers carried weapons I would have said no, unless there was some sort of documentation stating otherwise. My aim was to possibly uncover some of this "other" information. my apologies to those that were maybe looking for something more scholarly than a "common discussion".~Gary

[Silas]

Color Sergeant between two color corporals

I'm not aware of CW flag bearers carrying weapons of any sort. However, in some situations the regimental color sergeant (US) may have had a long-arm because, in some units, he marched in the front rank between the two colors instead of carrying one.

I didn't notice anything like this in Scott's or Cooper's manuals. The below is from Scott's Extract in the SoB :

Composition and March of the Color-Escort:

810. When the battalion turns out under arms, if the colors be wanted, one of the flank companies, in its tour, or, if they be both absent, a battalion company, will be put in march, to receive and escort the colors in the following order:

811. The drum-major, drummers, followed by the band;

812. The company, formed as column of platoons, right in front, arms supported;

813. The two color-bearers, elbow to elbow, between the two platoons.

814. The detachment will march in quick time, in this order, without the sound of instrument. Arrived at the quarters of the colonel, it will form line, fronting the principal entrance; the drums and the band on the right of the line.

815. As soon as the detachment shall be in line, the two color-bearers. preceded by the first lieutenant, and followed by a sergeant, will enter the quarters to receive the colors.

816. When the color-bearers come out, followed by the lieutenant and sergeant, they will, halt in front of the entrance.

817. At the instant the colors are brought out, the captain will order arms, to be presented, and the drums will beat the troop.

818. After some fifteen or twenty seconds, the captain will cause the beat to cease, arms to be shouldered, and then break the company into col*umn of platoons: the color-bearers, first lieutenant and the sergeant will resume the places before occupied by them in the column.

819. The captain will put the detachment in march, to the sound of mu*sic, in the same order as above.

- Honors Paid to the Colors.

820. When the head of the detachment shall have arrived near to one of the flanks of the battalion, the color-bearers will file out of the column; the colonel will cause the battalion to carry arms; the music will cease playing; the color-bearers will march in quick time down the front of the battalion, elbow to elbow, at the distance of ten paces from the line, till nearly opposite to the centre; the color-bearers will then wheel to the left or right, and halt, facing the centre.

821. The colonel, placed six paces in front of the color-sergeant, who is in the centre of the line, will, as soon as the color-bearers halt, cause the battalion to present arms, and then himself salute with the sword. This executed, the color-bearers immediately pass to the right and left of the colonel, to take their places in line, and the colonel will cause the battalion to shoulder arms.

822. As soon as the color-bearers file out of the column, the drum-major, drums and band, without playing, as also the company, march by the rear, in quick time, to take their respective places in line.

823. The colors will be escorted back to the colonel’s quarters, in the order prescribed above.

I'm quoting Scott's Extract because it's easy to cut, paste and cite. The SoB in Scott's full manual, linked from here, has a single bearer. Neither really addresses the issue about whether a sergeant's post - when there are two colors present - is between the colors. There must be some period account about this for this to be considered an accepted practice.

That Scott's Extract has the two bears marching elbow to elbow from the colonel's tent to the battalion front makes me wonder if the proper place for the colors is next to each other. Unfortunately, this would cause the addition of more people in the guard to maintain three ranks of four men each instead of three ranks of three. I don't see this as a practical solution. The insertion of the color sergeant between two corporals with each carrying a solitary color would not upset the three ranks of three practice.

I'm interested in seeing some citation to a sergeant being placed between a pair of colors. If there is such a source, is this an unusual practice or common period practice?

In the paragraphs dealing with the composition of the color guard from the first part of the tactics, it is stated in Hardee's Revised :

36. In each battalion the color-guard will be composed of eight corporals, and posted on the left of the right centre company, of which company, for the time being, the guard will make a part.

37. The front rank will be composed of a sergeant, to be selected by the colonel, who will be called, for the time, color-bearer, with the two ranking corporals, respectively, on his right and left; the rear rank will be composed of the three corporals next in rank; and the three remaining corporals will be posted in their rear, and on the line of file closers. The left guide of the color-company, when these three last named corporals are in the rank of file closers, will be immediately on their left.

Here's a cite to Hardee's Revised. Similar paragraphs can be found in Casey's manual beginning at paragraph 43 : "44. The front rank will be composed of a sergeant to be selected by the colonel, who will be called, for the time, color-bearer, with the two ranking corporals, respectively, on his right and left...."

I'm not trying to be a pain. Just wanting to see some period sources.

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Scott's manual (1830 edition) does indeed specify the position of the color sergeant in Paragraph 56:

"The color bearers shall be placed in the front rank with a color-sergeant between them. The three corporals shall be placed covering them in the second rank."

Just because it's written in a manual isn't enough in my book, so I went looking for period descriptions of formations in actual use. I found stuff like this:

"Brave Color-Sergeant Combs was struck down; his place between the two flags was quickly filled by Corporal Stephens."

I might add that there seemed to have been all sorts of systems and formations used during the war. In at least one case, I found reference to a formation similar to what Silas has posted. Many (if not most, particularly by mid-war) regiments only carried one flag in the field -- detailed instructions for color usage was generally outlined in the brigade and division circulars.

John Tobey

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

To all regimental commanders out there:

As someone who has been assigned the task of color sgt. many times... Please Please Please give your color sgt. the full 9 man color guard or at the very minimum a 6 man color gurard. I know you want to have as many rifles in the ranks a possible... but it is impossible to advance the colors 6 paces in front with no one to fill the hole in the line and keep it properly dressed. I can't stress this enough.

[Silas]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Scott's manual (1830 edition) does indeed specify the position of the color sergeant in Paragraph 56:

"The color bearers shall be placed in the front rank with a color-sergeant between them. The three corporals shall be placed covering them in the second rank."

I've got a hard copy of the 1830 and located that paragraph. It gets a little more complicated when applying other paragraphs. For example,

51. The state and regimental colors shall be borne by two sergeants, the former on the right.
52. The color guard shall consist of three corporals, to be selected by the colonel, from the battalion companies.

Reading paragraphs 51, 52 and 56 together, we've got six men total. Three are corporals. Three are sergeants ; two of whom bear colors. The middle sergeant is the color sergeant. A footnote on the same page as these paragraphs states :

If there be but one color with the battalion, then for color-sergeant, throughout this Abstract, read color-bearer, and omit color-bearers, whose places would be occupied by two corporals. The color-bearer and the two corporals would then constitute the color-rank.

I had not seen any reference to one sergeant flanked by two corporals bearing colors as was mentioned earlier in this thread. That's the thing which caught my attention. To show my inability to remember every reference, I called Scott's Abstract an Extract. Sounds similar, but not quite the same meaning.

So many manuals. So many different ways to skin the cat. So easy to mix parts of one scheme into another.

[Goat]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

So let me try to understand this. It was my understanding that, unless in a dire situation, only sergeants were granted the honor of actually carrying a color, and this in the first, or color, rank.

Where I think some confusion (for me) occured is the role and title of the various members. The senior NCO (Sgt.) is the Color (guard) Sergeant, regardless of the number of guard members or flags carried. He is in command of the detail.

A guard would then look like this:

One Flag carried- The Color Sgt. would carry the flags in the center position, front rank. The other eight (or five) members of the guard would be corporals, two of them flanking the Color Sgt. in the Color Rank.

Two Flags carried: The Color Sgt. in the center of the front (color) rank, flanked by a junior sergeant on either side, each bearing a color. Remainder of the guard, corporals, in covering ranks of three.

Three Flags carried: The Color Sgt. placed as above, carrying the National color, flanked by junior Sgts. each carrying a color (state and regimental; in the case of the 51st PA, their state color was modeled after the national flag, the Penns. crest in the canton with the stars.) Corporals in covering ranks as above.

Whether the Color Sgt. in case #2 above would carry a musket is an interesting question. It would make sense for him to do so, I suppose.

Did I get this right?:confused_

Rob Willis

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Color Sergeant between two color corporals

I'm interested in seeing some citation to a sergeant being placed between a pair of colors. If there is such a source, is this an unusual practice or common period practice?

My reply was in response to your above comment. In my opinion, it was fairly common practice when two colors were carried.

John Tobey

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Rob,

I'm not sure that having two sergeants in the color guard, when two flags were carried, was common. I've read of it being one sergeant with the rest corporals; at times it would appear that even privates were in the color guard, particularly (no surprise) on arduous campaigns with a lot of casualties.

To support what John T is saying--and correctly I believe--what's in the manuals is only one component of determining how it was actually done. There was a lot of variation among regiments, and from one time to another in the war. I won't say that a color guard NEVER had two sergeants, but I suspect it was probably rare, and I've never personally heard of a case where a regiment's color guard had two sergeants.

[Goat]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Kevin-
If you note, my post above was posted two days ago, and was "red-taped" for mod review. Thus, it is a bit out of sequence as far as the flow of info goes. So...

My post was an attempt to understand how a "regulation" guard was composes, not how it may have worked in the field. I agree with John and you that the specifics of a guard would be unique to some circumstances. Having said that, the system described does make sense. Going back to the original question, if two flags are carried, the color Sgt. would not be carrying one, thus, it makes sense that he would carry a weapon.

As far as two sergeants in the color guard goes, refer to the story of the 5th NY at Gaines Mill. As the story goes, when color Sgt. F. Spelman was overcome with the heat, a sergeant from the ranks, John Berrian, seized the flag and pushed it forward in defiance of the rebels to his front. He was quickly joined by Sgt. A. Allison, who was bearing the National color. Thus, unless by a wild coincidence, there were at least least two documented seregeants assigned to this color guard. This may have been unusual, I don't know. More research, more research.

Goat

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Rob,

Good points (and if I were more ambitious, or if your question is really burning, let me know and I'll go check my 5th New York books, including Davenport's regimental and some first-person accounts I have) and let you know.

To sound like a parrot, it varied with the regiment. In many cases I've heard of, in regiments with two flags, the color sergeant usually carried the national colors. Of course, an exception to this is one of the better color sergeant first-person accounts available, Irish Green and Union Blue, by Peter Welsh (color sergeant, 28th Massachusetts, Irish Brigade), edited by Margaret Kosse (sp?) and Lawrence Kohl. Welsh--a Canadian-born Irish-American (how's that? :) )--carried the regiment's "Irish" flag instead of the national colors.

I suppose that it was probably most common for a regiment with two flags to have the color sergeant carrying one of them, instead of the color sergeant in the middle.

To return to your point, with the 5th NYSV as an example, I think it was prety common that, when members of the color guard fell, men from other companies took their place; the number of accounts along the lines of "And then Joe Smith of Co. K jumped forward, siezed the fallen colors, and bravely bore them into the enemy's position..." are telling, as are tales of commissioned officers--even including colonels (Henry Burgwyn, 26th North Carolina, at Gettysburg probably being one of the best-known examples; one of my favorites, James McMahon of the 164th New York at Cold Harbor, being another)--bearing the colors are common as well, and certainly there weren't any commissioned officers in color guards in the Civil War.

It may be worth considering that the color guard was at the left flank of the color company, at the center of the battalion. That means that, in addition to the non-comms of the color guard, the 2nd Sergeant of the color company was literally right next to the color guard, as was the Orderly Sgt of the company to the left of the color guard. Other sergeants in these two companies would have typically been pretty close to the flags as well, so there were usually, I think, a number of non-comms very near the flags, in addition to those in the color guard.

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Interesting discussion. I'll add another wrinkle.

Although the regs wanted to call the commander of the color guard the "color sergeant," there is evidence that *all* sergeants in a color guard were referred to as "color sergeants"! I just got done with Edward's book on the 17th NY, and there is a reference to their three "color sergeants," and the regiment's two flags. Is it safe to assume that the third sergeant commanded the color guard (aka "color sergeant" per Scott?) and the other two carried the two flags?

There is an interesting division circular in the NARA for the 1st Div 18th AC...this division HQ published a circular stating that "privates shall no longer bear the flags during parade" (!!)

John Tobey

[ejn]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Here's a photograph of Color Sgt. William N. Irvine of the 1st Minnesota Vol. Inf. Co. D, he is wearing his sword.

http://1stminnesota.net/popPic.php?pid=IrvineWilliam2.jpg

Ed Norris

[JustRob]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

I'm giving this thread a bump for the benefit of the Color Guard at IPW.

[rebel7458]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Here’s more fuel for thought, since most of the discussion thus far has been on Federal color guard:

An Act of Confederate Congress, from the OR, Series IV, volume 3, page 190:

“AN ACT creating the office of ensign in the Army of the Confederate States.

The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That there shall be appointed by the President, to each regiment of infantry in the Army of the Confederate States an officer to be known as ensign, with the rank, pay, and allowances of a first lieutenant, whose duty it shall be to bear the colors of the regiment, but without right to command in the field.
Approved February 17, 1864”

Two examples were found of references to this from histories of the Orphan Brigade, including Ensign Robert Henry Lindsay of the 4th Kentucky, who was mortally wounded in the assault at Jonesboro on August 31, 1864; and account of the last color-bearer Ensign James G. Foulks of the 9th Kentucky Infantry cutting the flag during the surrender at Washington, Georgia, 6 May 1865.

On a CW relic auction site (didn’t have time to authenticate the claim in this add) was an ambrotype claiming to be color-bearer ensign John J. Cherry, 3rd Miss, that died of wounds received at Franklin.

[4th Michigan Historian]

Re: Color Sergeants with weapons

Greg,
"On a CW relic auction site (didn’t have time to authenticate the claim in this add) was an ambrotype claiming to be color-bearer ensign John J. Cherry, 3rd Miss, that died of wounds received at Franklin"

I can vouch for the authenticity of that sixth plate ambrotype of Ensign John J. Cherry, Company C, Third Mississippi Infantry that you made reference to. I did extensive research on the image and the soldier. He was from Bolton, Mississippi and was recruited by Colonel Thomas Mellon while John was residing at his estate. John was eventually promoted to Ensign to replace the previous color-bearer "who was a drinker, a straggler, and not of the Christian persuassion" according to Colonel Mellon. When I acquired the image there was a period ink identification that had mistakenly stated that he had died at Kennesaw Mountain. But further research proved that he was (mortally) wounded ( in the arm)while scaling the enemy's works bearing the flag in the battle of Franklin, Tenn. in Nov. of '64. He was captured and eventually hospitalized, where he then had his arm amputated. He died in Jan. of '65 from "exhaustion" in Hospital #1 in Nashville, Tenn.

I know this because I was the owner of that image and it sold for $4200 in Cowan's Military Auction a few years ago. It is a very rare image of a Confederate Ensign. I suspect that a truly identified image of an Ensign or color-bearer in the service of the Confederacy is as rare as an image of a fully equipped CSA drummer...just my opinion though. The photograph showed a seated Ensign Cherry wearing nice civilian clothing yet sporting his new military cap. The photo was taken shortly after he enlisted (according to a letter that once accompanied the ambrotype). If I remember correctly the rank of "Ensign" in the Confedrate army lasted for only a brief period of time.

I regretted parting with that image, but decided to focus my Civil War collection on items from the Fourth Michigan Infantry. And that I have never regretted.

Save Camp Letterman and the Shepherdstown Battlefield....
With Kind Regards,
George Wilkinson (web-host of 4thmichigan.com)