Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

[robwall1861]

Hello,

I know this has been discussed before and I did a forum search, but I wanted personal opinion and experience for this one:)....

When I do union, I have always in the past, and will continue to wear my box on the sling because of the sling with the eagle breast plate, etc. However, I wanted to mix things up this season for when I do CS and wear my box on the belt for the first time, (I bought a set of accoutrements (cartridge box, sling, cap pouch and bayonet scabbard) from Rob Serio of MB&S last June and they are GREAT), but was looking at trying something new this season.

Any thoughts, comments, personal experience of one vs. the other?

Thanks in advance,
Robin

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

Hallo!

Herr Robin... I am not sure what you are asking?

On the one side there are the historical references (and debates for and against shoulder belts) and images of CW sldiers with and without. As well as what research and documentation shows for the unit, time, and place of your impression or persona...

But you seem to be be asking a reenacting or living history "personal preference" type question?

I don't know if it is still availabe in SEARCH (as I did not look) but there once was a thread on the mdoern practice by some lads of "weighting' their cartridge boxes to simulate the behavior and "historical feel" of a cartridge box with live rounds versus a "reenacted feel" of a box of blanks (also with or without a shoulder belt). It might help with your inquiry...

Curt

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

There is some great info on this topic in the threads below. Enjoy.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6119&highlight=cartridge+box+sling

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4138&highlight=cartridge+box+sling

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1240&highlight=cartridge+box+sling

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

Robin, I'll address the 38th directly. Based upon the ordinance issue records for the regiment I would recommend using the sling. Box and box belt* issue is almost one to one in every document I have viewed. Reported losses by the 38th of cartridge boxes and box belts are also about equal.

The dandy helix top-stitched, blackened linen sling associated with several surviving NC boxes appears in images of the dead at Petersburg.
______________________________________

* Not waist belts…just making that clear.

[robwall1861]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

Curt....basically I was looking for personal preference in the ACW as well as any reenactors who'd like to share their experiences in this matter. Thanks for the thread idea though, I do remember that thread and will see if it can be found.

Robin

[Brian Wiswell]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

I know that some cartridge boxes were made with only belt loops, but there are some things to consider. Not very many styles were made this way and also the weight of a full cartridge box.

If you have ever filled your cartridge box with live ammo (40 or so rounds with mini’s) you would immediately notice the weight of it. The thing is heavy when full.

Wearing it full of live ammo (the way they did) without a box sling would really pull down on your belt. It would be similar to wearing a tool belt that was heavy on one side and then marching all day. Another idea to consider is that the waist belt loops were on the cartridge box might have been used in addition to the box sling?

Brian Wiswell

[Matt_E_Wright]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

The argument that, ".58 live ammunition is soooo heavy that no Soldier would ever wear his cartridge box on his waistbelt" comes up often enough to warrant some response.

Going back to the best source on Federal cartridge boxes - Bilby's book - it becomes apparent that the belt loops are there for a reason. Bilby sights numerous examples and accounts of Soldier's in the 1850's altering their 1839 cartridge boxes by cutting belt loops into the back of the box. If carrying live ammunition on your hip was soooo uncomfortable (vs. sling carriage) I don't think this would have been enough of a problem to cause the Army to consciously alter their cartridge box pattern with the inclusion of belt loops. Bottom line, the belt loops on the 1857 box are there because a good amount of Soldiers wore their boxes on their wasitbelt (even when the box didn't come with loops) and a pattern change was necessary to prevent Soldiers from continuing to modify their 1839 boxes.

Minus evidence to the contrary - I declare that the ".58 live ammunition is soooo heavy that no Soldier would ever wear his cartridge box on his waistbelt" argument is, itself, a reenactorism.

Thanks,
Matt Wright

[robwall1861]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

Matt,

Good point, I forgot to mention in my original post that the only musket I have is an 1861 .58 cal Springfield which I use for both sides, (I do supposed I'd like to get an Enfield one day for just CS use....but that's another place and time), as opposed to the .69 cal 1842 muskets used.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

Hallo!

"If you have ever filled your cartridge box with live ammo (40 or so rounds with mini’s) you would immediately notice the weight of it. The thing is heavy when full"

I would, perhaps, look at the other side of the coin... 'The thing is light when empty." or better yet, "The thing is light when loaded with blank rounds."

The weight of a loaded .58 or .69 cartridge box was the weight of a loaded .58 or .69 cartridge box. For the CW soldier, it was what it was.

IMHO, another "factor" is not the weight of loaded box or a box loaded with blanks, but also the "body morphology' or "body type" of many reenactors being unlike that/those of many CW soldiers.
Meaning, the discussion can perhaps be colored by one having a body with a waist smaller than one's hips versus having a waist larger than one's hips where gravity can have a different effect on a "live round" loaded box and belt versus a "blank round" one.
(Not saying that a CW soldier's personal choice and druthers in wearing a box one way or the other could not be influenced by his 1861-1865 "body type" as well....)

Curt

[Brian Wiswell]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

>would immediately notice the weight of it. The thing is heavy when full.<

I wrote that because of my personal experience with carrying a full cartridge box of live ammo.

> one having a body with a waist smaller than one's hips versus having a waist larger than one's hips where gravity can have a different effect <

Good point. Although I am slim. Experience has thought me that a heavy belt will pull down my waist.

But, as we all know there is nothing better than documentation…..

>- Bilby's book…sights numerous examples and accounts of Soldier's in the 1850's altering their 1839 cartridge boxes by cutting belt loops into the back of the box. <

Good example of soldiers making adjustments dictated by the rigors of campaigning.

Was there any evidence of the shoulder belts being used in conjunction with the belt loops? This was the style with other more modern uniforms. Possibly this is where the idea came from for the more modern?

Brian Wiswell

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

Hallo!

"Was there any evidence of the shoulder belts being used in conjunction with the belt loops? "

In my experience so far, not that I have ever read or seen.
It might would take some "experimental archeology" first, but I believe that the billets on the Period shoulder belt could not be adjusted "high enough" to enable a box to ride at the height of the waistbelt loops? If so, that would require either new billets to be cut and punched- or the belt to be cut, a piece removed, and the belt sewn back together?

Curt

[Matt_E_Wright]

Re: Wearing of Cartridge Boxes...

I agree with Heinrich. I have seen no "firm" documentation of Soldiers wearing their box on the sling and the belt simultaneously. While relics have popped up from time to time in this configuraition, I remain highly sceptical. Just because some original accouterments may be found in a certain configuration, does not mean that the actual Soldier wore it that way. One cannot discount the possibility that the accouterments were re-assembled by a subsequent collector, grandchild playing "army", etc, at some point in the last 145+ years.

On a side note, don't forget that riflemen wearing the 1841 box had no choice but to wear their cartridge box on the waistbelt. When you consider all the weight that the Soldier was carrying on his shoulders and back (full haversack, canteen & knapsack) it may have actually been a relief to carry some portion of it on the hips.

Matt Wright