Corp badges

[Cleaveland]

Re: Corps Badges

Steve;
Please correct me if I'm wrong; Whereas on the hat it states in Billings H&C "enlisted men were require to wear theirs on the front of their hat or the top of their cap." :thinking: On the blouse or jacket, on the left side.
So should we apply the 3rd Division, 4th Corps, badge now or wait till we arrive at the Mill?
Thanks;
Kindest Regards;

harold, read Geo.Thomas's orders for the Army of the Cumberland, I believe they are in hard tack and coffee. I don't have it in front of me but I belive the badge was to be on the side of the hat. I will try and find the order. if we can clear up witch side do it before you come. If you could if you have access to good material bring extras.

[justthemiller]

Re: Corps Badges

Hello all,

Basically the few photographs that show a 4th Corps badge usually show it fixed to the left side of the hat. Also, portraying a unit in Hazen's brigade where he would have been a stickler for such things as wearing a proper Corps badge should make one want to wear a proper badge. Take care.

[FlaYankee]

Re: Corps Badges

Jim and John; thanks for the information. As I recall last time we did wear them on the left side of the hat. The information I did get from HC seemed vague. I have about two or 3 corps badges, basically some old sky blue satinette, I had laying around. These are promised already but I;ll search around for some more fabric.
fRegards; :wink_smil

[markj]

Re: Corps Badges

Greetings,

Uncomfortable Question of the Day: What makes us think that corps badges were in wide use within the 4th Army Corps at the time of Picketts Mill? Given that this badge was only adopted 30 days before the engagement, when the corps was actively in the field, pray allow me to state I have my doubts.

Of all the images I've seen (published and unpublished) of the 32nd Indiana (1st "Willich's" Brigade, 3rd Division, 4th A. C. in May 1864) I've seen only one depicting a corps badge...and that shows a captain sporting a private-purchase badge pinned to his chest. I've also examined the regimental order books of such units as the 15th Ohio and 49th Ohio, also of Willich's Brigade, and none of them carry any general orders directing wear of corps badges.

Interestingly, as a side note, I did see a general order dated 5 May 1864, by Colonel H. J. Espy, 68th Indiana Volunteer Infantry, stating "In order to secure uniformity in the dress of the men, Co[mpany] Commanders will prevent the breaking down [of] the crown of the uniform Hat."

With all due respect, I think we might need a little more documentation that "Hazen...would have been a stickler for such things...." Can the photograph of the 4th Army Corps men be dated with any precision? I'm not saying corps badges weren't used in May 1864 but if people like August Willich, a Prussian who was absolutely anal-retentive about discipline and proper procedures, didn't mention anything about mandatory wear of them, we can only wonder who did. Perhaps regimental histories and the order books of the 6th Indiana, 41st Ohio, etc. will provide a definitive answer to this question.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

P.S. I would suggest we avoid using Roman numeral designations for army corps. To my knowledge, this practice only began in the 20th Century--perhaps as late as World War II. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of contemporary references to army corps and, without exception, either Arabic numerals are used or the number is spelled out (e.g., "4th A. C." or "Fourth Army Corps"). If anyone has seen anything to the contrary, I'd love to know!
Thanks.

[markmason]

Re: Corps Badges

MARK J. YOU ARE AWESOME! :wink_smil

[Steve Acker]

Re: Corps Badges

I will never use roman numerals in reference to a 19th Century corps again. I learn something every day.
The photo I refered to (Echoes of Battle) has no date and only one of the six men show a 4th Corps badge. He wears it on his left breast. They are not showing hats howevers so only history knows if there are badges on the side of their hats.
Based on all what's been said, do we pursue badges or not?

Teach with humility, learn with enthusiasm,
Steve Acker
Hogg Mess

[Cleaveland]

Re: Corps Badges

Yes we will use them.

We freely admit it is hard to prove or disprove at what point, Gen. Thomas' order was complied with by the thousands of men under his command The lack of Photo graphic evidence does not deter Us from wanting to see them wor., How in the middle of 100 days of fighting does anyone have his image struck? That Subordinates don't make mention of it in the records that we have... Well, We doubt in the scheme of things ,incuring heavy loss in lives, marching almost everyday, entrenching at every stop, We believe that it would not be to hard to forget to mention that the men where ordered to wear corps badges.

What it comes down to is the men in the 5th kentucky of Hazens brigade, Woods' division, Howards corps, Thomas' Army were ordered 30 days prior to the battle of Picketts Mill to be wearing blue Triangles as a badge.

We, the organizers of this event are Guessing that the men of the 6th kn had them on when they fought at the mill. If anyone can offer us anything better than their own conjecture as for not wearing them We will gladly listen to them , Next week. We have an event to put on this weekend.

I hope everyone coming to Picketts mill this weekend has a safe trip.

[justthemiller]

Re: Corps Badges

Hey All,

While the forum was down yesterday evening Mark Jaeger and I were e-mailing one another over this subject and Mark had an excellent suggestion which I feel would reflect the realities of this campaign. Basically paraphrasing what Mark suggested, there should be a smattering of Corps badges throughout the unit to reflect the use of them as based on period refernces, photos and other written sources. This, I feel, would hopefully & accurately reflect the fact that Hazen would have tried to implement the order but the time factor between the issuance of the order and the time they marched out on campaign would have been short and folks just, for one reason or another, could or could not comply with the order. Hazen was a royal pain in the backside during winter quarters but once the campaign was getting underway I felt would have worried about first things first. And that would have been that the men were properly drilled, accoutered and armed for the fight. Take care all and I hope to see many of you at the Mill.

[markmason]

Re: Corps Badges

As I suggested on our own Midwestmess forum, give someone half a dozen or so badges and toss'em to the wind, whom ever grabs one can break out a housewife and quickly sew it on. I think the fear amon us all is everyone jumping on the wagon and putting a badge on. Worse than this would be everyone sewing a badge sewn on in this same location..

Just my 2 or 3 cents worth

[Frenchy]

Corps Badge regulations

I own the OR on CD and much to my suprise I cannot find Hooker's general order that introduced the corps badge to the army in it. I'm doing uniform research for the Iron Brigade and I'm hoping to find official regulations as to the size of the corps badges and where they were to be placed on the hats and/or coats.

[BarryDusel]

Re: Corps Badge regulations

Frenchy,
It's there. The circular as to Corps insignia , Shape, colour , etc.
Go to the OR's.
Series 1 , Volume 25-Part 2. Chapter 37 Pg. 152
The order as issued 21 March , 1863 by Command of MG J. Hooker is there.

[ejn]

Re: Corps Badge regulations

In Colonel Charles Wainwright's dairy he writes, "In General Order No. 53, Hooker prescribes ..." Entry is dated May 14, 1863, Thursday.

While having nothing to do with the Iron Bridage, I thought this might be of interest. Wainwright also writes, "No special badge has been ordered for the artillery; but most of them have adopted the corps headquarters badge. I have not ordered it, but allow my men to wear it when they choose. I mean them all to wear their cross cannon and letters on their caps which will mark them all sufficiently."

Ed

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: Corps Badge regulations

I own the OR on CD and much to my suprise I cannot find Hooker's general order that introduced the corps badge to the army in it. I'm doing uniform research for the Iron Brigade and I'm hoping to find official regulations as to the size of the corps badges and where they were to be placed on the hats and/or coats.

Here's an old photocopy of the order that I've had for a long time, the quality of it is bad. It clearly states they are to be worn on the top of the cap.

Also I've added the OR page that Mr. Dusel referenced.

That's all I have. For the Iron Brigade, I would suggest your search should start with the Wisconsin Veterans Museum collection. They have plenty of books, etc. check online for their website.

Good luck!

[Frenchy]

Re: Corps Badge regulations

Merci boucoupt mes amis!

I don't know why I had so much trouble locating this order in the OR. I did see mentioned elsewhere in 1864 the size of the corps badge for the colored troops serving in the Gulf was to be two inches by two inches. Do you suppose a this was a standard size adopted by the War Department?

[PrivateRBDavis]

New division - badge change?

If there's anyone who can shed some light on this, I've totally exhausted all resources...

When Hooker established the corp badge system in March 63, the 155th PVI (2nd brigade - 3rd Division - V Corp) attained the blue maltese cross corp insignia corresponding to their corp/division.

BUT... In May, just after Chancellorsville, they were moved to the 3rd brigade - 2nd Division - V corp. This would beg a switch to the white insignia.

Does anyone know if they changed their insignia to the newly appropriate WHITE maltese cross prior to Gettysburg? Which would be appropriate for this unit for a Gettysburg impression?
_____________

Charles Cesca
Co. B 155th Reg PVI
Great-Great-Grandson of
Pvt. Richard B. Davis - 155th PVI