Corp badges

[markj]

Re: New division - badge change?

Hi,

When you say you've "exhausted all resources" does this mean you've already examined any and all regimental order books for the 155th PVI (and it's brigade-mates) at the National Archives? There may be something in there....

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: New division - badge change?

Have you checked the Official Records (ORs)?

[PrivateRBDavis]

Re: New division - badge change?

Yes and yes. But I will double-check. I do know they were diligent with the insignia changes desipite their frequent division changes, as well as their drastic uniform change in 64. The Troiani collection has a 155th zouave jacket with the red insignia, and they were only in the 1st division for a relatively brief period -- March to June 64 (then again, that was an action packed several months).

Thanks!

_____________

Charles Cesca
Co. B 155th Reg PVI
Great-Great-Grandson of
Pvt. Richard B. Davis - 155th PVI

[Sprowls]

Noah Pangburn

I'm not sure about earlier 155 PVI Corps badges, but just thought I'd
mention that Soldiers and Sailors Hall in Pittsburgh, PA displays
Pvt Noah Pangburn's original 155 PVI zouave uniform. A red Fifth Corps
badge also adornes Pangburn's jacket. I'm guessing you've read Under
the Maltese cross, Antietam to Appomattox, the loyal uprising in western Pennsylvania, 1861-1865 Publication info: Pittsburg, Pa., The 155th Regimental Association, 1910.

Chuck Sprowls

[GreencoatCross]

Re: New division - badge change?

Charles,

I've had the same problem with the U.S. Sharpshooters. They belonged to Whipple's 3rd Division of the Third Corps in early 1863 but after Chancellorsville they were transferred with many other regiments to the 1st Division of the Third Corps. One diary entry states indefinitely (not memoirs, diary) that a blue badge was issued on April 16th, 1863. In addition to that nearly all of the U.S.S.S. photographs I've dated to the early 1863 period show men wearing corps badges made from a very lightly colored cloth.

However, the transfer into the 1st Division took place in early June, almost immediately after the Sharpshooters were re-clothed and re-equipped for the Gettysburg Campaign. No mention in any diary, memoir, record, or otherwise was made about having been issued, officially, any new badge. Some of the other regiments who the Sharpshooters were brigaded with were allegedly allowed to retain their blue badges so it's a possibility that the U.S.S.S. did the same. After all, almost immediately after their transfer they began the march heavily.

This does not explain most extant U.S.S.S. caps and their RED badges though. The one in Gettysburg was supposedly found on the battlefield and upon closer inspection it is an officer's cap or private purchase cap. This one has a red badge tacked to the crown. Another cap, worn by Sgt. Lewis Allen, Co. F 1st U.S.S.S., sports a red badge pinned to the lower crown by a false embroidered stamped letter "F." This cap, and his worn-out fatigue blouse with dark green chevrons, came with a tag from Allen that stated he wore those garments during the Gettysburg campaign. Yet another cap, worn by Sgt. John Schermerhorn, Co. H 1st U.S.S.S., sports a red felt badge on the center of the crown (it's interesting to note that Schermerhorn's chevrons each had a red badge sewn to the top center of each, where an Orderly Sgt. lozenge would be). I do not know if these badges were field-made by the men but if they were I would have little to go on as far as finding out WHEN they were attached. So far no U.S.S.S. garments have appeared with the blue badge of their old division, and no officer-grade badges such as stamped metal or silver have turned up in blue either.

I don't have a smashing conclusion to my problem yet but until then my mess and I just go out with no badges unless the scenario is very specific, and even then we don't all wear the things. If we were to do Chancellorsville, yeah, we'd more than likely all have blue badges, but if we were doing Petersburg few would have any, and those few would be red Third Corps badges since they were allowed to retain them (we know that as a fact) after the transfer into the Second Corps. Some Sharpshooters reported that after their transfer into the Second Corps in early 1864, so many men raised such a fuss that officers let them retain their "Old Third" badges until they wore out. Naturally, the men kept replacing them with their own cloth and I have a feeling that Sgt. Schermerhorn put some extra red badges on his chevrons just to upset the Second Corps men. One diary entry stated that some men in the regiment were sewing their newly issued Second Corps badges to the seats of their trousers, inside blouses, on the interior of caps, etc.. Talk about pride!

Brian White

[PrivateRBDavis]

Re: Noah Pangburn

I'm not sure about earlier 155 PVI Corps badges, but just thought I'd
mention that Soldiers and Sailors Hall in Pittsburgh, PA displays
Pvt Noah Pangburn's original 155 PVI zouave uniform. A red Fifth Corps
badge also adornes Pangburn's jacket. I'm guessing you've read Under
the Maltese cross, Antietam to Appomattox, the loyal uprising in western Pennsylvania, 1861-1865 Publication info: Pittsburg, Pa., The 155th Regimental Association, 1910.

Thanks, Chuck. I've been through UtMC:AtA cover-to-cover and there's little or no mention of details regardng division color-coded corp insignia what-so-ever despite the title of the regimental history itself referencing the V Corp symbol. There are some crests and logos inside that include various maltese crosses, but since it's printed in b&w, it's hard to tell the true color of anything. They're either "white", light gray, or dark gray. But none are dated, etc.

What's worse is most of the portraits are either of the men in their late-war zouave fatigues, or of the men shortly after being mustered in -- Aug 62.

The red badges, which are the only colored ones I've seen on any existing 155th uniforms, were probably added when they were transferred to 1st brigade, 1st Division March-June 64.

I need to really really really dig to get to the bottom of this.

_____________

Charles Cesca
Co. B 155th Reg PVI
Great-Great-Grandson of
Pvt. Richard B. Davis - 155th PVI

[PrivateRBDavis]

Re: New division - badge change?

I don't have a smashing conclusion to my problem yet but until then my mess and I just go out with no badges unless the scenario is very specific, and even then we don't all wear the things. If we were to do Chancellorsville, yeah, we'd more than likely all have blue badges, but if we were doing Petersburg few would have any, and those few would be red Third Corps badges since they were allowed to retain them (we know that as a fact) after the transfer into the Second Corps.

Sounds like my only short term solution. I have freshly cut red, blue, and white insignia on my shelf when and if I ever solve this.

Some Sharpshooters reported that after their transfer into the Second Corps in early 1864, so many men raised such a fuss that officers let them retain their "Old Third" badges until they wore out. Naturally, the men kept replacing them with their own cloth and I have a feeling that Sgt. Schermerhorn put some extra red badges on his chevrons just to upset the Second Corps men. One diary entry stated that some men in the regiment were sewing their newly issued Second Corps badges to the seats of their trousers, inside blouses, on the interior of caps, etc.. Talk about pride!

Hehe. That's a great story! Thanks so much, Brian.

_____________

Charles Cesca
Co. B 155th Reg PVI
Great-Great-Grandson of
Pvt. Richard B. Davis - 155th PVI

[Jimmayo]

Re: New division - badge change?

There was one method used to change/display corps badges and that was to use a combination of both. I have a pic of a kepi with the white 3rd corps badge sewn to the top and a second corps badge sewn on top of the 3rd corps badge. Occasionaly you will see items with two corps badges displayed in this manner.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/relics.html

[Charles Heath]

4th Division Corps Badge Colors

I perused the "Corps Badge" related threads via the handy dandy A-C forum search engine, and came up with some good leads, but no firm answers for this one. Several of the federal Army Corps had fourth divisions in addition to the usual three. Fourth division corps badge colors were green or yellow, from what I can ascertain, the 5th, 6th, 9th, and 20th Army Corps had green fourth division corps badges, and the 15th AC had yellow. The fourth division in the 6th AC was also known by the moniker "The Light Division." Please, please, correct me if these assumptions based on some quick and dirty research and the usual charts are wrong. Specifically, I'm seeking a fourth division, 5th AC Maltese cross, overlaid on the (then defunct) 1st AC sphere/disc. Yes, red & green just like Christmas.

Finding several photographic examples of green corps badges is eluding me this morning. Yes, this is not NUG or PEC, but these badges existed, and some relics still exist to this day. The 9th AC badge on the website (nifty two part type with the fabric insertion) linked below -- about halfway down the garish yellow page -- shows a medium green insert:

http://www.mikescivilwar.com/corps_badgesII.htm

That's the only image of a green one that I can find with ease, but others exist somewhere out there in musuems and online. Knowing the vagaries of color matching between photographs, computer monitors, oxidation, fading, and a whole host of issues that would likely scare off a Pantone chart, is there anyone out there who has a good grasp of what this color would have been when newly issued?

What color green then vs what color green is available now as a match. The first assumption would be Berdan green as a default, but the overdyed green is different than the Woolrich (sorry) dark green commonly available. Anyway, I'm stumped on this one, and the best available product is most likely going to be "close" at best.

Any corps badge collectors out there this morning?

Charles Heath

[Ringgold]

Re: 4th Division Corps Badge Colors

How do, Mr. Charles?

I have a 4th Division, 9th AC badge in my greedy little mitts and have looked through some books to see if I could find a color match that you would be able to find in your collection as well. It appears your assumption is correct. In Echoes of Glory, A&Eot Union, on page 160, they show a 1st USSS frock coat. It is SPOT ON to the color of my corps badge. Look especially to the area around the right shoulder. I have even checked my corps badge's color against a wonderfully preserved soldier's memorial escutcheon for Captain Durell. It shows the exact type of badge that I have (one of the reasons I bought it) and the colors match perfectly.

But, as I'm sure you are aware, there was always deviations in tint on corps badges. I have 2 different 1st Division, 6th AC badges with one a beautiful blood red color and the other a brilliant scarlet that almost leans towards an orange tint. I should mention that all three of the badges mentioned have the color enameled on and do not carry the color in any cloth.

I hope this helps.

[GrumpyDave]

Re: 4th Division Corps Badge Colors

Knowing my luck, this is already in your been there, done that category:



http://www.civilwarmysteries.com/corps_badges.htm

[Charles Heath]

Re: 4th Division Corps Badge Colors

Grumpy Dave,

Been there, done that, but you'd be surprised at how many folks received the benefit of viewing that corps badge chart for the first time. About halfway down on this page is a modern illustrated example of the combined 1st AC and 5th AC badges, and in green on red. The effect is more cartoon than helpful, but it's still a small clue.

http://www.batteryb.com/iron_brigade.html

Obviously, it's just an illustration, but you get the general effect. While event portrayals have featured other variations in corps badge consolidation, the fourth division colors just don't pop up that often.

Mark,

Thanks a bunch!

It's not the most scientific color matching process, but this is about the best we can hope for at the moment. This now lends itself well to the next step in the process of making four dozen of these cheerful little insignia.

Charles Heath
Old Dog, New Tricks :D

[GreencoatCross]

Re: 4th Division Corps Badge Colors

That USSS frock in EoG is a gross recolorization of black & white photos published in Roy Marcot's book years and years ago.

The real USSS coat color is nearly black but the green does have a blue tint to it. I don't want people to think the 4th Div. corps badges were that color.

Brian White

[Charles Heath]

Re: 4th Division Corps Badge Colors

Brian,

Thanks for the warning. Yep, some of the "colors" in that publication are a bit off, to say the least. I sure wish someone would finally come up with the errata sheet that has been talked about for years. Just needed a "paint chip" for fabric, and Mark figured I probably had a copy of EOG-US (poor man's edition) hanging around the library.

Speaking of nearly black greens on originals, do you know if that particular USSS frock coat was one of those overdyed garments? I seem to recall a long discussion some time ago about how yellow dye was used over the existing blue to create the color green in a rush job to issue green uniforms. If that's one of those old campfire "urban folktales," then feel free to shoot it down. The overdye discussion may have been on the old EZ Board version of the A-C Forum.

Charles Heath

[GreencoatCross]

Re: 4th Division Corps Badge Colors

Charles,

I have no conclusive information about all U.S.S.S. uniform cloth but I think Don Troiani dug up some information regarding the first goverment-made uniforms, which were made and issued out to the Sharpshooters in April/May 1862. A call was made for cloth and I believe that the mill to win the bid provided 1,400 yards of 11 oz./yard sky blue kersey fast-dyed green. A pretty substantial find if this is correct; it proves a quick top-dye and possibly backs up accounts for the extremely poor clothing situation both regiments were in late in 1862 ("no two men identically clothed" stated the inspection report). There is also a good theory supporting the use of yellow cloth for the initial caps, which had to have been top-dyed to achieve the dark green color.

Before the Spring 1862 coat issuance it appears that Martin Brothers & Company in NYC provided the first coats to the U.S.S.S.. These coats were made from super fine cloth imported from England (possibly close to the modern day cloth from Hainsworth, which was allegedly providing cloth to the English armed forces of the time...including the rifle regiments) but they were constructed to regulations according to a communique between Colonel Cross at Philadelphia Depot and Colonel Vinton at NYC Depot.

Now, there has been a lot of speculation as to whether or not all of the USSS coat cloth was in reality top-dyed dark blue cloth but so far I do not think there has been any hard evidence to back that up. There may be only one solid lead on that, and that is with the Spring 1862 coats, but that does not account for the rest that the S.A. continued to produce throughout the war (there were so many surplus coats on hand that the 203rd Pa. Vols. were issued them as well as green pants and caps). I've seen one positively IDed U.S.S.S. frock in person and yes, it does have a strong blue tinge to it, not an olive one as seen in Pat Kline's cloth (which we had him produce but sadly quality control is lacking when you are forced to change dyers so frequently). If you took a piece of FHW's "Berdan Green" coat cloth and laid it on the original coat....it would look brown. The true color of the coat is stunning in that it's so dark yet so strongly green when it's in the sun; it shines but remains nearly black so it's pretty strange. ALso, the cloth used in this coat is so fine that it appears to be velvet at first glance. Definitely top-grade cloth so it could have been something purchased on the civilian market of the time but again, I have no idea. I'm sure the answers are out there somewhere.

Oh yeah...and to elaborate further on coats. The one in EoG is the oft-termed "Sealed Pattern" Sharpshooter frock. This means, of course, that it was constructed under the auspices of the S.A./Philada. Depot but it was merely a sample coat for future coats to be compared to. Thus it was only a model, never saw combat, and was never worn except by perhaps a clerk or tailor to ensure a proper fit for whatever size it was made in. I have no idea what the garment is made from but some have speculated that it's left-over cloth used in the production of the Martin Bros. & Co. coats while others say it's made from the top-dyed 11 oz. stuff. Personally I try to avoid that coat like the plague...it does have some redeeming research qualities but again, it was really just a model locked away somewhere in Washington City and there are several other IDed U.S.S.S. frocks out there that did see service which can provide much, much, much more interesting information.

Yet another tirade...

Brian White