Knapsacks & Blanket Rolls Redeux

[2RIVB]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

I get the feeling that he means pouches. He seems to be very well written, with few speeling errors.

[hardtack1864]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

He could be talking about an early war haversack since a haversack was not talked about in his letter/diary.

[va-yank]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

The uniform he describes sounds like a one-off state or local issue kit. He states pretty clearly "in place of a knapsack". The pouch may have been some private purchase substitute for hard-to-come-by government knapsacks. Which its understood were in especially short supply early in the war.

My answer is, I don't have a very precise visual idea of what item he is referring to. There seems to have been a profusion of patent items made from india rubber "for the soldier", shoes, gaiters, balaclavas, etc. early in the war. This could be something made in R.I. and nowhere else.

Just curious, are you looking to do a Rhode Island impression? :)

[1stMaine]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Comrade Fred,
He's talking about the 1st Rhode Island. There was a blouse unique to Rhode Island called, interestingly nough, a Rhode Island Blouse. It's similar to the pullover blouse the Marines wore, sort of a "battle shirt" made of sack coat material. very comfortable, and very useful and easy to make. They also had red blankets, and Ambrose Burnside, who helped to raise these troops and train and equip them, opted for blanket rolls instead of knapsacks, due to his interest in light infantry. They wore the issue army hat, looped up with the eagle badge, because everyone at the time associated that hat with European light infantryment, sort of the fore-runner of the cowboy or bush hat.
It's because of Burnside's interest in blanket rolls and the comfort of his troops that I think the author may very well be talking about a poncho instead of a "pouch". It would also make sense in light of the lack of tents of a suitable pattern for them at this time. the shelter half was nearly a year away from it's first appearance, and the other patterns were a bit bulky to fall into line with Burnside's thoughts on light infantry.
Anyway, that's where I am coming from. The real arbiter would be, most likely, found in the AG reports of Rhode Island. If they are like Maine's, they tend to list all the initial issues to the regiments, and many have little sidebars of contracts let, etc.
Respects,

[markj]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Hi,

Frankly, I was more intrigued with the man's mention of "Costzacoalcos." This is likely a tortured spelling of "Quetzelcoatl," which was the Aztec "Feathered Serpent" god.

>"It would also make sense in light of the lack of tents of a suitable pattern >for them at this time. the shelter half was nearly a year away from it's first >appearance, and the other patterns were a bit bulky to fall into line with >Burnside's thoughts on light infantry."

I'll have to check the 1861 War Department contractor listing but, actually as I recall, several thousand "tents d'abri" were ordered, and presumably delivered, at least as early as September 1861.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[1stMaine]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Comrade Mark,
I also noted that spelling of the Great Feathered Serpent's name. very interesting. You may be correct regarding the initial issue of the shelter tent. My statement is based upon the first accounts i have of issue to the AOP, which were in the spring of 1862. Some units may have gotten an earlier issue, but I haven't read of that yet. Another reason, I suppose, to purchase the Shelter Tent book:)
respects,

[va-yank]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

"Just curious, are you looking to do a Rhode Island impression? :)"

That was meant to be a joke of some kind. And I cannot now remember why or how I intended it to be funny.

Tim,

Yes, I had heard of the 1st R.I. and their famous pleated battle shirt. I didn't realize that the 1RI was the group he was referring to. You really want it to be a poncho, eh?

Wasn't it also the R.I. troops that had those collapsible derby/havelocks?

Also, they were the tiniest soldiers in the Union if I recall...

[1stMaine]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Comrade,
Actually, I may very well be wrong in this regard, what with all the patent-this and patent-that soldier items that were flooding the markets, but who knows? I got the joke:) What's interesting is that on Burnside's estate in Bristol, there is a replica of "Burnside's Bridge" from Antietam. Popular fellow, and wealthy as well.
I'm not adamant about this letter writer making a mistake in translation, although, like I said, that would be my initial thought. I'm just having a bit of difficulty imagining what else it might be, pouch-wise, that would be useful. Then again, it could be the new prescription that I'm on.......
respects

[hardtack1864]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Look at page 97 of EOG. Two men clearly are wearing shiney haversacks which seem to be made of rubber and those men are part of the 1st R.I. Question answerd.

[1stMaine]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Comrade Sean,
It may well be that the answer is, in fact, an india-rubber haversack. That, however, still remains to be seen. If he's using a haversack in lieu of a knapsack, then where does he carry his rations? If it's something else entirely, then where is it? Not all answers are as cut and dried as you would have them. For example, the man clearly knows what a knapsack is and what that mode of conveyance is designed for. Does that not then suppose that he knows what a haversack is? If the latter is correct, then why not call it a haversack instead of a "pouch"?
I'm not trying to be cynical nor cause any heartburn, but simply applying reason to the subject. At this stage, there exists more than a single possible explanation for the item in question. None of us may lay claim to the correct answer based solely upon the one letter's descriptions and a single image. I have given a suggestion as to what it MIGHT be, and you have another, and someone else posits a third. Without additional detective work and further information, it must needs remain an educated guess.......
respects,

[2RIVB]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

The pleated blouses were what some of the officers wore. There were a couple different typees that the enlisted men had, mainly variations on collar type and pocket/no pocket.

My hypothesis is this, I feel the "pouch" may have been an india rubber haversack, or possibly even a smaller than average, single bag, knapsack. I turely feel he ment pouch, not poncho. The only real misspelling, which I was unaware of till it was pointed out, is the name of the aztec god, but what person would really know the speeling of that word, if they did not have a background of study in it.

My curriosity really has the best of me here, because, if there is one out there, I want to see it. If there is a pattern for it, I want it, and bottom line, if it was PEC, and there is one availible to copy, I WANT ONE!!! (little childish, but I love my toys).

[2RIVB]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Echoes of Glory, pages 212 and 213:

Pvt. Edgar S. Yergason
22D Connecticut Infantry Regiment
Knapsack of Guta-percha lined canvas
Pg. 212, bottom right corner


Model 1853/55 Knapsack
71st New York Infantry Regiment
These nonrigid knapsacks of rubberized or painted canvas were the commonest style issued during the war. The straps could be hooked to the 1855 Rifleman's belt, or crossed on the chest
Pg. 213 upper left corner

What do you think?

[2RIVB]

Re: India Rubber Pouch

Is there perhaps an NJ ************, or Curt Schmidt out there who might be able to shed some light on this? Anyone else who might be knowledgable?

(named those names, due to the fact that they seem like likely sources for this whacky knowledge, that isn't so common among most of us)

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Re: Oilcloth Dimensions

Believe it or not, Jarnagin makes maybe the best rubber groundcloth. I know you want want painted cloth, but not too many vendors make that available. Contact Jarnagin for dimensions and gromet size, type. Also, another 'believe it or not,' James Country Merchantile makes the only good painted cloth groundcloths I've seen by a vendor. The guy there is very nice and I'm sure would have no problem helping you out. I know these are not the best of vendors and under other circumstances I would not recommend them. But give it a shot.
http://jarnaginco.com/catframe.html
http://www.jamescountry.com/frame/main_frame.html

Jim, please don't post links to unapproved vendors here. You yourself question their products in your post. An email to the party would suffice in this matter if you feel strongly in your recommendation. - Mike Chapman

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Oilcloth Dimensions

I posted this a while back.
(Please note that a similar cloth here in NC is six inches wider, roughly 46" and one run wide.)

I have an original ground cloth. It is good quality, heavy, tightly woven unbleached linen. The finish is dry and flakey but still quite stout in some areas. The textile and the finish are similar to the type used in NC cartridge box slings.

It has hand-whipped eyelets in each corner. The cloth is 70 inches long and 39 1/2 inches wide. Two 20' wide (selvedge edge to selvedge edge) runs are used.

There is a flat (unfolded) 1/2 inch seam down the center with two rows of tight hand top stitching. The sides are unhemmed selvedge edge. The top and bottom edge are double felled and tacked with a tight blind stitch similar to a miliner's stitch.

The eyelets are reinforced with a linen that seems to be the same as the body with folded, whipped edges.

Enscribed in one corner ''N B Parker''
It has a strong Co A, 27 NCT provenance.