springfield misfire - next step?

[straggler]

Gents,

Have spent some time with a Miroku that misfires like blazes. Will fire
fine 3 to 5 times - after a thorough cleaning - but then nothing. If the
cone and flash channel are cleaned (quickly in the field) - it will usually
fire ok - one more round - sometimes (rarely) twice - but then again
nothing.

Have gone through the "usual suspects" steps - i.e I have changed the
cone, drilled out the cone, checked that the hammer is striking the cap
squarely (it appears to), etc.

An attempt to check the distance from the face of the breech plug to the
flash channel shows - Original Springfield (1/8 inch) - James River defarbed
Springfield (1/8 in) - the Miroku (1/4 inch).

While I would think that 55 / 60 grains of powder will fill barrel more than
the 1/4 inch in the Miroku I am begining to wonder if maybe the breech
plug is a bit too short.

My next idea is to take it to a gun smith, have the plug pulled and see
if there is anything obviously wrong with the plug, inside of the barrel, etc.
but I wanted input on other things I can try first.

Thanks in advance.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

This is a guess without inspecting the weapon, but it sounds to me like you must have an obstruction of some type between the flash channel and the barrel. Obviously, something or other is preventing the cap from igniting the charge in the barrel. The Miroku US 1861s are not known to be fussy shooters, as the Armi Sport US 1861 and CS Richmonds can be.

1. Does a pipe cleaner inserted through the flash channel (after removing the clean-out screw) easily slide all the way through the bolster and in to the barrel?

2. If not, and the opening to the barrel is slightly clogged, you can take a high speed drill (carefully) through the flash channel after removing the cleanout screw and "open it up" again.

3. You said you tried a new cone. Have you tried a stainless steel replacement cone from Regimental Quartermaster, 8 x 1 mm threads? The vent in the Miroku cone narrows in diameter to a pin-hole passage through the center section. It can easily clog even if the base has been "drilled" to 1/16 or larger.

If this is not the problem, then there are two variables left...the percussion caps and your powder. You can try a different brand of caps (Navy Arms vs German caps), or maybe try 60 gr of FFFg which has a faster burn rate than a coarser granulation of black powder. However, it is least likely to be the caps or powder.

[Johan Steele]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

I have had a Miroku for several years and have never had any issues w/ misfires until this last year; I got a great deal on caps... I now know why as the caps were junk, at least 20% would not ignite the charge. Went back to my German caps and viola no problems.

Another issue might be excessive oil while cleaning, I've had issues where if I don't pop my two caps to clear the barrel I will have issues. One down range on in the grass.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

Hallo!

" Will fire fine 3 to 5 times - after a thorough cleaning - but then nothing. If the cone and flash channel are cleaned (quickly in the field) - it will usually fire ok - one more round - sometimes (rarely) twice - but then again nothing."

Without having the gun in-hand to check, I would agree with the advice so far..

IMHO, IF in a cleaned state, it fires 3-5 times and then craps out- it sounds like there is a blockage in the "flash channel" somewhere between the cone and the interior of the barrel.
It could be accumulated "coke" that is rock hard and resistant to cleaning that when 3-5 rounds are fired aggrevates a restriction in the cone itself or a constriction in the flash channel.
However, it may also be a piece of cap fragment, a portion of a "dud"' cap explosive "wafer" somewhere in the flash channel as well. Or from the inside of the barrel, a piece of coke that has been pushed by a cleaning jag or patch into the flash channel where it opens through the barrel wall inside of the bore.
I have also seen heavily used guns, in the N-SSA ,that had "coke walls" form in the breech and form over the flash channel opening inside of the bore.

And, it could be a combination of the above all acting in concert.

The advice from Herr Craig should take care of it.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

Johan:

Yes, excess oil can cause misfires, but leftover oil in the breech gives a misfire that goes Pfffffft on the first round, then it's normally okay. The symtom here is 3-5 good pops then she's clogged. My gut feeling here is as stated above and if Curt is in agreement, well his experience with Civil War-era firearms far exceeds mine, so I'd get out the titanium drill bits and fire up the drill.

It might be poor quality percussion caps or shoddy Chinese fireworks grade powder, and that is sure inexpensive and easy to rule out, but normally it is a build up causing the blockage. Poor quality powder will also foul more quickly than better grades of black powder like Schuetzen or Goex. Schuetzen is worth what it costs, in my opinion. For more info see the review on black powder in the back of Patrick Reardon's pamphlet "Making Cartridges", now in its second printing. About a half dozen brands were tested IIRC. I have seen (firsthand) US 1861s and Richmonds get so thoroughly clogged after several rounds with el cheapo Lidu Dragon Chinese black powder that boiling water would not penetrate the blockage in the bolster. After removing the clean out screw the flash channel was solid carbon. It had to be reemed out with a drill. There is a 5% chance this or bad percussion caps is it.

95% chance its a blockage in the flash channel or else the hole going into the barrel is too small, either from clogging or the barrel hole was just drilled too small from the factory. I recall an Armi Sport US 1861, brand new right out of the box. Why guys buy these I have no idea. Did just what he described...3-5 pops then crapped out. As it is, with the bolster design of the US 1861, the charge from the cap has to negotiate a 90 degree left turn and find the black powder charge sitting in the barrel below the level of the flash channel. In the good old days, back in the 1860s the charge was rammed home and pressed against the flash channel greatly assisting the ignition process. Drilling the barrel out a bit though, and changing the cone took care of that problem. Also happened with a new Euroarms Enfield from James River once, too. Todd Watts drilled out that bolster as I recall. The hole in the barrel was just too small and clogged right away.

Todd, do you remember the details on that...the boy got it for Christmas and used it at the STRI
living history in 2005?

[straggler]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

Thanks for the replies so far.

As to caps - the last 2 or 2 1/2 years I have used the German caps -
prior to that I used either the German caps or Navy Arms caps.

I have always used Goex powder FFF - usually between a 60 and 65 grain
charge.

Powder and caps are what I use on my other CW weapons (a P53
Enfield - an original Bridesburg - and a defarbed '61 Springfield) none of
which have these problems.

When the weapon is clean a pipe clear easily slips into the flash channel
with no resistance and the channel itself seems, otherwise clear of obstrution
(burrs, buildup, etc.) - but that is when it is clean.

I guess the fact the a quick clean in the field (using the nipple pick on
both the nipple, and the flash channel) will allow one, sometimes two
shots does point to some type of obstruction or build up.

Guess next I will check the diameter of the flash channel and see how it
compares with the original and my other '61.

Again thanks for the suggestions.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

I didn't really think it was the black powder or percussion caps. It's not possessed by the devil, so there is something going on with it and the chain reaction necessary for ignition is being interrupted. Drill the opening in to the barrel a bit larger, replace the cone, and I'll wager it will be right as rain.

[Todd Watts]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

I have dealt with a few 1861 US models that had similar misfire problems. Haven't dealt with a Miroku, but have the Euro and Armi versions. On one, a very rarely used new Euro, in the field I could remove the clean out and poke a pick straight through and even a pipe cleaner. It'd fire a couple more shots and then misfire again. Frustrated, I took it to my shop and under good light inspected it. A hardened cake of fouling was under the cone. The pipe cleaner and pick could ride over this into the vent, but when the cone was seated down the little mound essentially plugged the cone's vent. An Armi version I found had the vent drilled slightly off center from the cone's flash channel. I overdrilled the vent to fix it.

My first fix suggestion is to get in and vigorously scrape the bolster area. Hot water won't dissolve the cake, it must be scraped out. Next, check to see that the vent is centered to the cone's vent. Be sure there is not a burr from drilling left in the barrel vent. I have seen this on an Enfield that caused trouble. You may want to drill the vent slightly larger, but not too large. Then, grind/file the cone's shank to shorten it by 1 thread. This will solve any issues you may have with fouling cake rapidly rising to touch the cone base. Drilling the cone's vent is not that useful in my opinion. In fact, over-drilling is dangerous because too much pressure can reverse back through the cone and spray hot gas and debris out from under the hammer. Firing re-enacting blanks this is not a big concern, but if you fire projectiles, it is a safety concern. I have seen hammers re-cock from hefty charges or over-blown vents. Just think of the shooter's eyes, much less the men on eitehr side if he is in the rear rank. When a cap detonates, the flame is going through the cone regardless of the vent size. A large vent allows a rapid flash, and is less likely to be clogged than a smaller vent. However, a smaller vent compresses the available flash and sends a more violent jet of flame through the bolster. I like a smaller vented cone and rarely have any misfires. I keep my cone, bolster and vent clean religiously, even on the field.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

Hallo!

"Drilling the cone's vent is not that useful in my opinion. In fact, over-drilling is dangerous because too much pressure can reverse back through the cone and spray hot gas and debris out from under the hammer. Firing re-enacting blanks this is not a big concern, but if you fire projectiles, it is a safety concern. I have seen hammers re-cock from hefty charges or over-blown vents. Just think of the shooter's eyes, much less the men on eitehr side if he is in the rear rank. When a cap detonates, the flame is going through the cone regardless of the vent size. A large vent allows a rapid flash, and is less likely to be clogged than a smaller vent. However, a smaller vent compresses the available flash and sends a more violent jet of flame through the bolster. I like a smaller vented cone and rarely have any misfires. I keep my cone, bolster and vent clean religiously, even on the field."

True.

I would just add that "Forum Advice" or "Board Instructions" can be a risky thing because three things are going on:

1. What I thought I said.
2. What you thought I said.
3. What I actually said.

;) :) :)

If "I" say "drill out" your cone or flash channel a "little larger" I might have been thinking a 1/32 or 1/64 inch say, and "you" drill it out a 1/4 and are in trouble.

IMHO, a period or "original" cone is a thing of beauty. It has a "flash channel" that is an elongated hour glass in profile.
Although not "always," Period ordnance usually was designed to do a job, and often did it fairly well. IMHO, if one uses a "original" dimensioned and proportioned cone, one will do "okay" (granted firng blanks is a different "fouling cuve" than firing live.)
However, the Italians with the introduction of the so-called "N-SSA competetion" pin-hole aperature/vent style cone can create problems for the modern reenactor.

But when a Forum or Board reader reads "drill out" to mean running a 1/4 inch bit through everything, he creates other problems. (1/4 inch being used for telling the story not that a cone can actually be drilled out to 1/4.)

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

(And even with "original" cones, blow-back was a concern, so Period hammers typically had recessed noses that came down over the cap to reduce blow-back splash and cap fragmentation splatter.)

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

My Euroarms Springfield one year gave me exactly the same problem because I wasn't getting the angled flash channel properly cleaned.

The solution was to take a paperclip and bend it so I could get it into the flash channel and shove the excess gunk out into the barrel so it could be cleaned. I selected the largest paperclip that would fit in order to make sure i was scraping the sides of the flash channel.

I now do the same thing at the end of every season and I haven't had a problem with it since.

[tommy303]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

In firing blanks, as opposed to live, the powder does not combust quite as completely and fouling in the flash channel and bolster seat builds up quite a bit faster.

One thing I find helps is to make an adaptor to fit in the threads of the nipple seat with a rubber O-ring to seal it. A piece of surgical tubing can be attached to the adaptor and submerged in a bucket of hot water. Pumping action with a patch and rod will force water under pressure through the vent channel and out of the adaptor. This will tend to flush the vent channel and keep it clear of built up debris from firing at events. Sometimes, though, hard fouling builds up in the bolster and a metal pick of some sort needs to be used to remove it.

Once the barrel, bolster and channel are cleaned of powder fouling, use a little smokeless powder solvent to make sure the residue from the percussion cap is removed as well. It should be already but it doesn't hurt to do it. The old percussion caps of the civil war era used fulminate of mercury, and potassium chlorate and antimony sulfide to enhance the flame. The residue of the fired cap was water-soluable and washed out with the usual water cleaning which removed the powder fouling. Today's caps use lead styphanate and tetrazine; while this composition is non-corrosive, it is also not water soluable and should be removed chemically with a solvent.

Thomas Fuller

[Freeborn]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

Hallo!

[IMHO, IF in a cleaned state, it fires 3-5 times and then craps out- it sounds like there is a blockage in the "flash channel" somewhere between the cone and the interior of the barrel.
It could be accumulated "coke" that is rock hard and resistant to cleaning that when 3-5 rounds are fired aggrevates a restriction in the cone itself or a constriction in the flash channel.
I have also seen heavily used guns, in the N-SSA ,that had "coke walls" form in the breech and form over the flash channel opening inside of the bore.

And, it could be a combination of the above all acting in concert.

The advice from Herr Craig should take care of it.

Curt

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You nailed the problem I was experiencing with my 1861 Springfield. I had replaced the cone with one with a wider opening, used the nipple pick extensively, but still had frequent misfires. I cleaned and scraped the barrel to no avail. I finally took the advice to drill through the cleanout plug and that remedied my problem. The drill bit right through the obstruction so this must not have been metal. Took the rifle to Jackson this past weekend and didn't have a single failure to fire. First time this summer I've been able to fire more than one or two rounds without a misfire.

[7thNJcoA]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

glad to hear it worked out ok! I had a problem with a pards 61 while we were live fireing! After we removed the ball and powder we drilled it out and bam he was back in action the next weekend!

[Craig L Barry]

Re: springfield misfire - next step?

That procedure usually does the trick if it is not something simple.