Bayonet Dummy

[GeraldDuval]

So, as part of our LH programing at Fort Delaware, I am trying to incorperate a Bayonet drillwith both our staff and the public. As part of the drill I'd love to have at it at a bayonet dummy.

Does anyone happen to know or have any instructions for creating a Federal Bayonet training dummy?

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Warning, unless you have an original bayonet or a quality reproduction, you will bend your bayonet on the first thrust. The cheap Pakistani repros bend to easily to be used on a dummy. Making a plastron would be cool, but I doubt it would be legal to make one from whalebone (unless you found an antique).

Jim Butler

[paulcalloway]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Relating to Jim's rabbit trail, The Company of Military Historians publishes a manual on the various bayonets down through the ages.. .can't recall the title and am in a hotel so can't get it, but it has a description and period illustration of how bayonets were tested.

Essentially the bayonet was fixed on a rifle and the point of the bayonet was stuck in the floor. The rifle was then pulled back making the bayonet bend to about 45 degrees. If the bayonet snapped or was mishapen as a result of the test, it was discarded.

I doubt any reproduction bayonet would pass that test today. I'd be afraid to try.

If your bayonet dummy is essentially a bag full of straw, you're probably ok... but anything more than that and Jim is right, your typical reproduction bayonet probably won't survive the exercise.

[GeraldDuval]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

We have one rigged up now, a straw filled one, and it's not too bad. What I've found is that rather than having faulty bayonets, we've ripped the front sights off a few different rifles...

Ideally I'd love to have the bayonet sockets and whalebone blades, the fencing masks and jackets, but for now we have to settle with wooden rifles and our straw dummy.

[BigRonFH]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Are the repro bayonets THAT bad that they break so easily? Why is that; poor-grade metal? What's the difference from the originals? Who makes the best repro bayonet on the market?

Ron Hopkins
Co. D, 13th US Inf
Sioux Falls, SD

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Repro Bayonets = Cheap Casting w/ Cheap Steel

Original Bayonets = Forged Steel w/ proofing

Note: I cannot recall whether original bayonets were hot/cold rolled steel.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Did they actually do bayonet drill in the Civil War using straw dummies, or is that just in the film "Glory"?

I once did bayonet drill on a dummy with my "cheap repro" bayonet and it was fine. However, I was A) Working hard to make sure I didn't bend it, and B) Many others in the same drill with the same cheap-repro as me did indeed bend theirs from a 90-degree angle to something like a 135-degree angle or so, and without a lot of effort. If you use a modern repro, do it with care and expect to have to purchase a new one.

Or, omit the dummy altogether and just stab at the air.

[unclefrank]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

That sounds like a fun thing to do at a garrison sytle event.

[BigRonFH]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Does anyone make a quality repro bayonet that DOESN'T bend?

Ron Hopkins
Co. D, 13th US Inf

[Charles Heath]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Ron,

No. That is why the campaigner, progressive, and hardcore folks stress acquiring original bayonets.

Like Kevin, I'm also interested in seeing the documentation for a CW era bayonet dummy.

[1stMaine]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Comrades,

I do not know of any documentation for a bayonet dummy.

In McClellan's Manual of Bayonet Exercise, he lists, in his introduction to the subject, 3 distinct methods of instruction, none of which involve a dummy.

These are fencing, which he instances as difficult due to time and the difficulty of providing sufficient instructors for 1 V 1 teaching; Students using a plastron, mask and gauntlets, facing each other, for which he provides detailed instructions as to the equipment required and how it is made, and, finally, the mass instruction vis one or more NCO's, whih we all have occasioned to be taght in during our tenur in the line.

He (McClellan) also makes it known that the instruction is the responsibility of the NCO's and is to occur after the men are well versed in the school of the soldier.

The equipment for 1 V1 student practice includes a brown linen jacket with a double layer of buchskin on the left side, a plastron of horsehair padding to cover the left and center from the throat to the groin, a close-metal mask with wings to protect the ears, and gauntlets with extra padding upon the backs of the hands.

The arms for such exercise are made from old muskets and bayonets. The bayonet blade is removed, and the area at the base of the blade cut into a socket to recieve a flexible whale-bone blade of proper length. To the tip of this blade is affixed a piece of padded leather, tied with things or laces, to help prevent injury. The tip is also cut square, vice pointed, for similar reasons.

Basically, a review of the first portion (through pp 20) of the manual with give you what you need for instructive purposes, and plate XXIV shows the faux bayonet and it's components.

Respects,

[pipthelimey]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

I can see militias drilling like this, but in the rush to the front, how many units actually used plastrons, facemasks, and pads to practice like this? It seems like an enormous amount of material would have been neccesary just for the practice. Coupled with the fairly low incidence of bayonet wounds, how common was this type of bayonet practice?

The one good thing about bent repro bayonets is that they are not too hard to bend back.

The same thing can be said about most repro swords. No flex in the steel, no real tang, no balance,no ability to hold an edge.

Has anyone ever reproduced the training aid that literally looked like a tennis ball strapped on to the end of the bayonet. Lord's calls it the Ernst's Fencing Bayonet. It was made of India Rubber, with a steel socket that looked like the brass throat fitting of the Enfield Bayonet scabbard (albeit smaller) to stop the bayonet from sliding through the ball. It had a leather buckle strap that attached to the socket. I'm not sure how common these were, but they're nifty.

[1stMaine]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Andrew,

I agree completely with you. My piont is that McClellan literally wrote the book about bayonet drill. Nowhere does he even mention, let alone consider, using a bayonet dummy. It's just not there.

He lists three methods of instructions, but in his explanatory text he makes clear that the first two, fencing, and the use of 1V1 practice with protective gear, is both expensive, time-waise and material-wise, and also best done with small amount of students, etc. He was writing for the regular army, after all, and they had a small trickle of new recruits, enough to where that sort of instruction might be easily accomplished. It would also work well for militia groups, etc.

However, he notes that the large group approach, in the manner we are all familiar with, open ranks and one instructor, is what is easiest to do.

Respects,

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

An alternative to using originals that i have found to work reasonably well is to oil harden the repops. They still cant stand side by side with an origianl but they dont bend when you stick them into the ground.
Dave Myrick

[Parault]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Mr. Kindred I was going to reply to this post with the same information,but,you beat me to it. We use this manual when we have bayonet drill. The only differance is we do it in English not French as it was instructed to the recruits. I have enjoyed the drill and have learned loads of information about handling the rifle with the bayonet,which I might add, is not very easy. For those that are interested you can find this manual online.