Bayonet Dummy

[Mark Somerville]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Our Company practices the bayonet drill from McClellan's manual and just this past weekend practiced infront of the public at an event. Our 1st Sgt. conducts the drill from McClellans book and even gives the commands in French.

We find that the open ranks and open files gives enough room to complete all the manouvers required. We have been working on this the last two years and have I think done quite a good job. We are slowly introduceing more each year while renforcing what we have worked on.

Mark Somerville

[storyboy]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Regarding the bayonet dummy. I produced an antique roadshow type program in Jonesboro, Ga. a few years ago with John Sexton of Stone Mountain Relics as our appraiser. The program was for civil war items only and was being filmed under the show title Valuable Memories
One of our guests brought in a "home made " book written in pencil titled Bayonet Tactics for the Zouave and Light Infrantry. It was dated 1861 and was dedicated to the "southern patriots of the empire state of the south" (which is Georgia). It stated that Hardees and Caseys were used in the writing.
My point is that inside were drawings of wooden rifles, bayonets and pikes and how to use them. There were no pictures or statements that I recall referring to "dummys".
The book was judged to be authentic (after John got over the shock) and it was suggested that the worth of it could be great or small since John knew of no other. The guest was directed to the Atlanta History Center so Gordon Jones may know of it. By the way the mans mother purchased the book in a box of books at a garage sale for $5.00.

Peter Bonner
Historical & Hysterical Tours, Inc.

[RJSamp]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Ron,

No. That is why the campaigner, progressive, and hardcore folks stress acquiring original bayonets.

Like Kevin, I'm also interested in seeing the documentation for a CW era bayonet dummy.

Straw, hay, or cotton were readily available compared to say Watermelons or Pumpkins that the cavalry used for edged weapon drills... and soft materials don't jar the exercise as much as wood (logs, railroad ties, or planks). Common sense dictates that they would have used bayonet dummies. Fencing Dummies have been around for a few thousand years, the kind that is stationary as well as the ones that hit back......Legionaires used them to hone swordmaking skills, as did Knights (both mounted and dismounted)....and so did ACW Cavalry.

Haven't read anything during the ACW similar to Belgian Babies being bayoneted by the advancing Hun.....maybe it's a good thing that Guerilla's were armed with revolvers?

[GeraldDuval]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Thanks for the information guys. I'm rather disappointed about the lack of info on dummies, but i'll hold out a vain hope for something.

At Ft. Delaware, we have an opportunity that many reenactors don't Since park staff is required to not only be there every day, but engage in 1st person living history on a daily basis, I can drill the Sh*te out of them...:D

As it stands thus far, I was able to train the whole staff to competency in Kelton's new '64 manual, in French, including all the parries, reposts and anti-cavalry drills. Normally we spend at least 1 hour on bayonet, 1 hour on Rifle drills and 1 hour on Heavy artillery drills every day. I know the public just loves to see the bayonet drill, and us mauling the dummy especially.

Oh well, I guess I just need to get cracking on making some plastrons and masks.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

I think if you're dead set on producing a target you should really go with the "bag stuffed with straw" idea because there is no evidence the Union ever produced a dummy.

Manuals aside the Union had to train literally millions of infantrymen how to use a bayonet. Even if the dummy could stand up to the punishment inflicted by 100 men in training that literally means they would have had to order 15,000 or more dummies.

Not an insignificant number and surely to show up on QM returns somewhere.

So while you might pausably say that "the sargent thought it would be a good idea to give us somethign to aim at" the Army just didn't provide the "something" to aim at (other than an instructor or fellow private).

My father said in Korea they did some bayonet training using the real things with the scabbards left on, maybe some bright fellow somewhere between 1861-1865 thought of the same thing?

[riptailedroarer]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

From , Bayonet Exercise by G.B. McCellan

P.17 To accustom the men to give an accurate aim to their thrusts, balls of wood, lead, or canvas stuffed with straw,may be suspened by cords as targets. Of course, this target practice must be combinded with the volts, parries, etc.

maybe this is what you can use.

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Andrew,

I agree completely with you. My piont is that McClellan literally wrote the book about bayonet drill. Nowhere does he even mention, let alone consider, using a bayonet dummy. It's just not there.

Actually it is there. On page 17 in the Manual of Bayonet Exercise by George McClellan. Which is quoted in the last post. But just in case here it is again.

"To accustom the men to give an accurate aim to their thrusts, balls of wood, lead, or canvas stuffed with straw, may be suspended by cords as targets. Of course, this target practice must be combined with the volts, parries, etc."

Mr. McClellan was just not nice enough to call it a dummy.

(Sorry this is an older thread but it surfaced again in a new thread)

[Mudslinger]

I must agree with the other parties that no such evidence existed that "dummies" were used for bayonet drill, at least none that I have yet found. I'll give this a stab.


In 1777, Fridrich Wilhelm, the Baron von Steuben, was sent to America to teach the Continental Army how to essentially fight as an army. Yes, He was a French Foot Officer, but He was trained in Prussian tactics, and instructed the Continental Army in such, and not French tactics. Nowhere did he record, or mention the use of a "bayonet dummy" when teaching the Americans bayonet drill. Interesting .....we've just begun!


McClellan's 1852 Bayonet Manual does not record a "dummy" either. In fact, this little French-interpreted manual was not the only one in existance during the war. What about the French Bayonet Drill of 1861? Colonel James Monroe of the New York State militia, copied the work of a French General named Le Louterel. Col. Monroe got the bayonet system from the French 1861 ordonnance. His translation was published in New York in 1863. This sytem was primarily used for the sword-bayonet. Nowhere does it mention a "dummy" used in drill.


And Patten's Bayonet Drill for the use of US Militia and Volunteer Units of 1861? Nope....it's just a condensed version of McClellan's 1852 Manual. The Type II Fencing Bayonet (1855 socket bayonet) was predominantly used in this drill (a Type I was the sword bayonet, fitted to the US 1816 musket) No dummy mentioned here...


Type II Fencing Bayonet Illustrations:




Ah!!! What about Lieutenant J. C. Kelton's Bayonet Method for the Union Army in 1862? This method was primarily based on conventional 19th century fencing, similar to McClellan's 1852 manual. Lt. Kelton wrote several versions of the manual even up to 1864. No "dummy" mentioned here either.....but, here is an illustration of Kelton's suggested drill gear:

A fencing helmet, fencing jacket, fencing gloves, & a wooden musket complete with the Type II fencing bayonet.



In closing, the closest thing besides "stabbing the air" or "bayonet fencing" with your opponent, was the German Bayonet Drill of 1830, which instructed the recruits to fence off a lancer. Below is an illustrated example:



I'll stick with Kevin's idea......"just stab the air".

_______________________

Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I., Co. F
Mudslinger Mess
Acorn Boys

“With the bayonet one can do anything.”-Napoleon

[PvtRJBrown]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Nick,

These bayonet fencing devices shown in the pictures on your post, I have never seen before, but are very intriuging. Some one should try to reproduce them for living historians use. How common were they in ACW drill?

[brown]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Did Casey's have an edition that pre-dates the 1862 version with which I am familiar?

One of our guests brought in a "home made " book written in pencil titled Bayonet Tactics for the Zouave and Light Infrantry. It was dated 1861 and was dedicated to the "southern patriots of the empire state of the south" (which is Georgia). It stated that Hardees and Caseys were used in the writing.

Peter Bonner
Historical & Hysterical Tours, Inc.

[erik]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

While I agree that there is no evidence for bayonet dummies, there is a reference in the British Field Exercise 1862 under Bayonet Exercises, S.11. Bayonet or Sword Bayonet Exercises. 1. General Directions;
"Giving Points at Marks.- In order to teach the recruit to deliver the thrust in a proper direction, a cross bar upon poles may be erected, from which balls can be suspended and a squad being drawn up in front should be practised in giving point at them."
I am sure that this practice would be known to serious students of the military art. I shall search for my Bayonet Drill manual for the British Army which includes the above and if memory serves me rings on a staff to serve the same purpose.

Erik Simundson

[Mudslinger]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Nick,

These bayonet fencing devices shown in the pictures on your post, I have never seen before, but are very intriuging. Some one should try to reproduce them for living historians use. How common were they in ACW drill?
__________________
Pvt/Cpl. Roy James Brown (a.k.a. Franklin J. Shaw)
1st Michigan Engineers Co. E

Roy,

I have yet to see a reproduction Type I or II Fencing Bayonet. On the same hand, I am currently in the process of talking to a manufacturer in Brooklyn, NYC, that may be able to reproduce these bayonets for a small price. I'll keep you informed.

Did Casey's have an edition that pre-dates the 1862 version with which I am familiar?

Lindsey,

There were many pre-war bayonet manuals written. The ones that I have researched came from foreign manuals, as well as State militias. As far as Casey's, could it be a second print? Or copyright infringement? There are several original bayonet tactics manuals which I will post on here later this week.

YOS,

Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I., Co. F
Mudslinger Mess
Acorn Boys

“With the bayonet one can do anything.”-Napoleon

[PvtRJBrown]

Re: Bayonet Dummy

Roy,

I have yet to see a reproduction Type I or II Fencing Bayonet. On the same hand, I am currently in the process of talking to a manufacturer in Brooklyn, NYC, that may be able to reproduce these bayonets for a small price. I'll keep you informed.[/I][/B]

Nick,
Please do! I would definetaly make a purchase of one if they were produced. I think it would add a very interesting addition to drill at an event. Give a different look on bayonet drill than the oh-so-well known Glory bayonet drill. I will agree with some of the posters on this thread, best approach to bayonet drill: the plain old air.

[Mudslinger]

Did Casey's have an edition that pre-dates the 1862 version with which I am familiar?

Originally Posted by storyboy
One of our guests brought in a "home made " book written in pencil titled Bayonet Tactics for the Zouave and Light Infrantry.

It was dated 1861 and was dedicated to the "southern patriots of the empire state of the south" (which is Georgia). It stated that Hardees and Caseys were used in the writing.

Peter Bonner
Historical & Hysterical Tours, Inc.

Lindsey,

Patten's Bayonet Drill for the use of US Militia and Volunteer Units of 1861 was just a condensed version of McClellan's 1852 Manual. The French Bayonet Drill of 1861 adopted by Colonel James Monroe of the New York State militia, copied the work of a French General named Le Louterel. Col. Monroe got the bayonet system from the French 1861 Ordonnance. This system was primarily used for the sword-bayonet. It is mentioned however that this was a favorite of Zouave and Light Infantry Units.


YOS,

Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I., Co. F
Mudslinger Mess
Acorn Boys

“With the bayonet one can do anything.”-Napoleon