Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

[jacifus]

I have been reenacting since 1998, ad have always worn my cartridge box on my belt, ( I was told that it was ok to do so)......

Which method is more period correct? Now that my focus is authenticity, I thought that maybe it might be an issue..........


Thanks!

[Frenchie]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

It depends on the unit you're portraying and/or your rank. You have to do some research. Just one example: you're a sergeant and have the 1840 NCO sword hanging from a shoulder belt (baldric); you'd probably end up without the cartridge box belt because you already have a black strap with an eagle plate across your chest and another one (in the opposite direction) would look awkward to your officer and/or be uncomfortable; that means you'd have your cartridge box on your belt.

A private who'd lost his cartridge box strap would have to carry the box on his belt of course, but that would be non-standard and more than one or two in a full-size company would be wrong. But again, do your research. I'm afraid I can't do that right now, but I'm sure someone will.

[plankholder]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Try putting 40 rounds (live rounds) or the equivilent weight into your box and see if you can or would want to wear it on a belt alone. I used to wear mine on the belt alone, which was done as you can see in original images, but once I tried to march a few miles with it, I went back to wearing a sling. Quite frankly, I didnt have enough in the way of hips to keep it in its proper place. Try this little experiment and see how it works out for you then make the descision. -ELI GEERY

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Hallo!

From the vaults of the SEARCH Function:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10853&highlight=cartridge+box+belts

and

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6119&highlight=cartridge+box+belts

As an aside, yes there are Period accounts of officers speaking in support of the waistbelt loop suspension, but there are also those speaking out in support of the shoulder belt as well...

Headquarters 2nd Division, 12th A. Corps
"Medical Directors Office"
Camp near Fairfax Station Va.,
January 17, 1863

J. McNuley,
Surgeon Volunteers & Medical Director,
12th Army Corps.
(Referred to General Ripley]

Sir:

Having for more than a year past been connected with the examination of disabled soldiers for discharge, I have been impressed with one very general cause of disability. I allude to the habit of wearing the cartridge boxes attached to a simple belt around the lions (sic); without shoulder straps. It is now almost a universal custom to dispense with shoulder straps. The effect is that a heavy weight is suspended from the belt, which is necessarily drawn rightfully around the loins and abdomen; this impedes the return of blood from the lower extremities and thus produces varicose veins of the legs and also varicocele; It also pressures down the bowels and the tightening of the belt prevents their return, the weight of the cartridge box with from forty to sixty rounds of cartridges aides to force the bowels into the ingrinal rings or beneath poupart ligament and this produces Hernia.

This state is vastly increased by the fatigues of long marches and retreats, where the parts are not only relaxed but the hurried respiration and the pressure of the diaphragm all tend to aid the belt and weight of cartridges in producing one or more of the above named results.

As President of a Medical Examining Board for discharges, I have had a large number present themselves with Varicose Veins, Varicocele and Hernia, and more than one half of them, have named a march, a battle or a retreat as the time of its commencement. And my own observation has taught me that it is almost always caused by the weight of the cartridge boxes pressing upon the hips and bowels. I think I may say that thousands of men have been discharged from the service who might now be useful soldiers, but for the dispensing with the shoulder straps.

I have the honor to be, Doctor,

Very Respectfully
Your Obt Servant
Dr. A. Ball
Medical Director
Surg & 2nd Division, 12th Army Corps
"

IMHO, the research and documentation of one's impression's time and place should dictate shoulder belts or not.

However, IMHO, the personal choice to use one or not, should best be made from the historical or experimental archeological perspective gleaned by adding 4+ pounds of lead to one's blank filled .58 cartridge box or 6+ pounds to one's .69 box- and THEN making a decision... ;-) :-)
IMHO, "empty" cartridge boxes (read as filled with blanks) is the reenactorism. ;-)

I did not look to see of the old discussion of some of us adding the lead to our cartridge box tins to replicate the weight of a "loaded" cartridge a Civil War soldier dealt with survived the Crash or not...

Others' mileage, and box weights, will vary...

Curt

[jacifus]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

It depends on the unit you're portraying and/or your rank. You have to do some research. Just one example: you're a sergeant and have the 1840 NCO sword hanging from a shoulder belt (baldric); you'd probably end up without the cartridge box belt because you already have a black strap with an eagle plate across your chest and another one (in the opposite direction) would look awkward to your officer and/or be uncomfortable; that means you'd have your cartridge box on your belt.

A private who'd lost his cartridge box strap would have to carry the box on his belt of course, but that would be non-standard and more than one or two in a full-size company would be wrong. But again, do your research. I'm afraid I can't do that right now, but I'm sure someone will.

I received some great info from "western reb"....it seems that the Trans-Mississippi had a serious leather shortage, so I imagine slings were in short supply....

Thanks For your help!

[jacifus]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Try putting 40 rounds (live rounds) or the equivilent weight into your box and see if you can or would want to wear it on a belt alone. I used to wear mine on the belt alone, which was done as you can see in original images, but once I tried to march a few miles with it, I went back to wearing a sling. Quite frankly, I didnt have enough in the way of hips to keep it in its proper place. Try this little experiment and see how it works out for you then make the descision. -ELI GEERY

I have had the same experience, but if they didn't wear them as a rule in the Trans-Mississippi, then I probably shouldn't use a sling, I guess.......:)

[jacifus]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Owwch!

That certainly sounds painful to me. I COULD add lead, but.........:)

[western reb]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

I received some great info from "western reb"....it seems that the Trans-Mississippi had a serious leather shortage, so I imagine slings were in short supply....

Thanks For your help!

On the topic of the Trans-Miss theater, there was plenty of cattle from where the leather could come from in this theater but it appears to be more of an issue of tanned leather production. Not being familiar with leather whatsoever, I would appreciate if someone could chime in and explain this definition.

K.C. MacDonald in his article titled " Trans-Mississippi Confederate Uniforms
(Part III -- November 1862 - June 1865), provides some good info on this topic, just got to dig for it....

http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/tranmis1.htm

[HighPrvt]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

It was done as there were quite a few boxes that were of the belt only variety.

[Jim Mayo]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

I don't have the figures available to me at this moment but I have some quartermaster reports of the 9th Va. while on the Howlett line. Almost all of the men have cartridge box slings.

On another note, there are also many CS boxes surviving with slings. However, a number of the slings appear to be of lesser width than the fed slings. Take a look at the box with the leather sling on this page for an example.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/csequip.html

Anyone else noticed skinny slings on CS boxes?

[Slouch]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

yes, I too have noticed the narrower CS slings and many fellows in my unit use the narrower sling.

It was noted two posts above that many original boxes only have belt loops. Most of the CS boxes I have seen that do not have both belt and sling loops only have the sling loops.

It is true that there are many reports of leather shortages, but I do not believe it is correct to say that most western troops did not have slings based soley on this reported leather shortage. Lets not go down the lost cause road of ill-equipage without having adequate research.

I believe it is safe to say that slings were used, and if a soldier did not have a sling he wore the box on his belt. I personally would not enjoy carrying 40 rounds on my belt, and based on my limited use of a box filled with 40 live rounds, feel that I would go to great lengths to find a sling in the event I found myself without one.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Let's not forget that due to "tanned" leather shortage there was great use of cloth pieces of equipment.

At the Richmond Civil War Show a couple summers ago, I remember examining two cloth box belts "slings"; one appeared to be of constructed of drill, while the other was constructed of striped tick, with the exterior of the sling painted black. If I remember correctly, one of these definently had "late war" provenance behind it.

Paul

[ohpkirk]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

I received some great info from "western reb"....it seems that the Trans-Mississippi had a serious leather shortage, so I imagine slings were in short supply....

Thanks For your help!

Where have you heard about a serious leather shortage in the Trans-Mississippi? I know of cartridge boxes being issued with hide on out here but not any shortage of a source for leather. Tanneries may have been an issue.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Hallo!

Herr Dan...

Yes, there is a big diffrence between a "skin" or raw hide and finished leather.
In brief and to over-generalize:

At the time of the Civil War, fleshed and scraped hides were soaked for five to seven months in tanning vats in a tanning solution ideally made of the preferred Chestnut Oak bark (sometimes Hemlock bark, and sometimes "mixed tannage" in the form of a mix of Chestunut Oak and Hemlock bark).
Tannins in the bark triggered an acidic action in the hide that slowly turns the skin into leather halting the naturally decay but also leaving the hide flexible and durable for use in products.
Chestnut Oak was preferred by the U.S. Ordance Department for its higher acidic content that aided in the black dyeing process. (However, they sometimes accepted "mixed tannage" plus some contrators substituted cheaper hemlock tanned leather that had been bleached to look like "oak tanned.")

Prior to the War, there was a mix of the 1850 Ordnance Manual specified "buff leather" that evolved into "buff, dyed black," russet, and the easier to make "waxed leather" for box shoulder belts. However by 1862 that had changed to requirements of "grained leather" (finished on the grain or smooth side of a hide rather than the flesh side as was "waxed" or "upper" leather. Grained leather is also called "bridle leather."

And if a skin is not tanned, it can harden or stiffen, becomes brittle, and then rot.

Curt

[western reb]

Re: Cartridge Box on Belt or Sling?

Cody,

It appears that Jaye took a PM I did to him and put it slightly out of context (don't worry Jaye, it happens sometimes). Your correct about there being no shortage or availability of leather in the Trans-Miss (I agree completely).

Curt, thank you for you posts, very interesting and informative.