Rations

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

I could'nt get an image to load with a drop-forged, three-pound, ball-peen hammer.

Try a trip hammer!

[coffee boiler]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

As already pointed out, the term “spider” has an inconsistent usage. When this was discussed about a year ago, one poster pointed out that where he grew up a “spider” was just another term for a regular frying pan as opposed to the more proper usage of a frying pan with three legs. I suspect that when Rice wrote about the common practice of soldiers carrying “spiders” that he is really referring to a regular old frying pan, as I am not aware of archaeological evidence to support anything else.

From “Soldiering – The Civil War Diary of Rice C. Bull, 123rd New York Volunteer Infantry” edited by K. Jack Bauer and published by Presidio Press.

October 1863
“Many changes had been made in their camp life and they were living very differently then when I left them at Aquia Creek. There were now no company cooks; rations were issued directly to the men and they prepared their own food. The three men who occupied a tent formed a mess, pooled their rations and did their own cooking. This plan proved to be most efficient as in this way a meal could be quickly had when needed. The only mess utensils required were a spider, coffee pot, and hatchet; each man had one article to carry. Under this system of feeding the men were more independent, well satisfied, and much better fed.”

[va-yank]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

I stand corrected, Rice does not mention a fry pan but a spider. Ok, so we begin to assume that fry pan and spider are interchangable. Guess this an instance of my modern world interpretation of camp cooking equipment forming my mental picture of a spider.

Still interested in the trivet that Garrison shows as having a North Carolina CW provenance. Although it may be a real one of a kind relic.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

Here is a TRIVET belonging to Nathan Byron Parker and Richard Bright Parker Co. A, 27th North Carolina Troops. It is roughly 6'' across, 10'' long and 1 5/8'' high.

Neuman and Kravic's Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution refers to the artifacts in question as ''Three-legged skillets". Nothing more. (p 91, Cookingware). Two fine examples are shown along with broilers, braziers, trivets, toasters and cast pots. They are forged sheet iron and appeared to be lighter weight than the modern examples shown below.

Several 19th and early 20th century examples actually have the word SPIDER embossed in the handle.
This could be another example of a style being identified by a common makers name. (See attachment)

As to the reference to this post being addressed a year earlier, well, I'm new to the forum and do not have the old posts to refer to. Pardon my lack of experience and knowledge of those things hashed out before.

[coffee boiler]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

Echo's of Glory has a picture of a soldier holding a cast iron spider in front of a log cabin. But I can't image these being routinely carried by the soldiers because of their weight. That is why I suspect that Rice is really referring to the common soldier's frying pan and not a cast iron spider.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

Here is a picture of a Dutch oven or "spider" ( take your pick) cover found in a 1862 camp of the 57th Va. It is hard to read but the firm that made this looks like Snyder of Richmond Va. I think we can all agree that one would not like to tote the bottom half of this cooking device any distance. Probably carried along in the camp wagon and would have been left in camp or stored for spring and summer campaigns. Usage may also have been limited in CS service later in the war due to other consideratiions. Like wise, frying pans with legs poking out would also be hard to carry and would have likely been carried in a wagon. From parts of frying pans I have found and others I have seen, soldiers were cooking with small frying pans with no legs and wrought iron handles while on the march. A large version on one of these can be seen in in the background of one of the pictures posted recently of Union soldiers removing a cannon from Confederate works at Petersburg.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

Here is a picture of a Dutch oven or "spider" ( take your pick) cover found in a 1862 camp of the 57th Va. It is hard to read but the firm that made this looks like Snyder of Richmond Va. I think we can all agree that one would not like to tote the bottom half of this cooking device any distance. Probably carried along in the camp wagon and would have been left in camp or stored for spring and summer campaigns. Usage may also have been limited in CS service later in the war due to other consideratiions. Like wise, frying pans with legs poking out would also be hard to carry and would have likely been carried in a wagon. From parts of frying pans I have found and others I have seen, soldiers were cooking with small frying pans with no legs and wrought iron handles while on the march. A large version on one of these can be seen in in the background of one of the pictures posted recently of Union soldiers removing a cannon from Confederate works at Petersburg.

Very nice, thank you Jim.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

One thing not discussed in this thread is the ''mess'' theory.
The heart of this is: Share the food, Share the duties at the fire, Share the weight.

I like the use of a fork mention above to handle the skillet without a handle.
A cloth works well too. Plus any soldier used to cooking on coals adjacent to an open fire or hearth should have more heat tolerance than we do.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

One thing not discussed in this thread is the ''mess'' theory.
The heart of this is: Share the food, Share the duties at the fire, Share the weight.

I like the use of a fork mention above to handle the skillet without a handle.
A cloth works well too. Plus any soldier used to cooking on coals adjacent to an open fire or hearth should have more heat tolerance than we do.

Did someone ask the best way to cook on these things?

I have a great deal of experience cooking on forged and cast iron critters like these if anyone is interested.
We have a cooking hearth in an early out-building kitchen.

[Enfilade]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

I think through one of our guy's research on this subject we found only one reference to "spiders" in the wagons behind the line of march.

Were they around? Certainly. In the CMH newsletter I've read about them in Rev War being even more in use. The problem is that unless you're using an original, they aren't correct. The reason they aren't correct is because today's method of cast iron manufacturing is much different than it was then. The method changed about 1880's-ish. We can , however, get much closer to camp cookware by using the sheet metal cooking implements. That's what we do. I would love to cook some hominy in a cast iron spider if we could get the molten poured right in a cast iron mold. It would be distinctive with a line down the middle of the bottom. I believe Hank Trent posted a picture of this last time this subject came up.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

I think through one of our guy's research on this subject we found only one reference to "spiders" in the wagons behind the line of march.

Were they around? Certainly. In the CMH newsletter I've read about them in Rev War being even more in use. The problem is that unless you're using an original, they aren't correct. The reason they aren't correct is because today's method of cast iron manufacturing is much different than it was then. The method changed about 1880's-ish. We can , however, get much closer to camp cookware by using the sheet metal cooking implements. That's what we do. I would love to cook some hominy in a cast iron spider if we could get the molten poured right in a cast iron mold. It would be distinctive with a line down the middle of the bottom. I believe Hank Trent posted a picture of this last time this subject came up.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

From post # 19 above

“Neuman and Kravic's Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution refers to the artifacts in question as ''Three-legged skillets". Nothing more. (p 91, Cookingware). Two fine examples are shown along with broilers, braziers, trivets, toasters and cast pots. They are forged sheet iron and appeared to be lighter weight than the modern examples…”

This is a great reference with 19th century applications as well.

You can find it for sale at:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2U5A6HP26I&isbn=0960566678&itm=12

[Moonshine]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

Didn't Sam Watkins say something about a guy in his company that carried one in his knapsack? I asked this question before the "meltdown" because I got a cast iron spider (like the one pictured in EoG Confed) off eBay and was inquiring if any one actually had reference of someone toting this beast around. I got "Co. Aytch" as a reference yet I don't recall the exact passage.

Jim Ross

[Hank Trent]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

The problem is that unless you're using an original, they aren't correct. The reason they aren't correct is because today's method of cast iron manufacturing is much different than it was then. The method changed about 1880's-ish. We can , however, get much closer to camp cookware by using the sheet metal cooking implements. That's what we do. I would love to cook some hominy in a cast iron spider if we could get the molten poured right in a cast iron mold. It would be distinctive with a line down the middle of the bottom. I believe Hank Trent posted a picture of this last time this subject came up.

You're talking about gate marks, and I think the pictures I posted may have been from current eBay sales. A search on eBay for "gate mark" and "cast iron" or some similar combination may turn up some examples, since sellers like to show off the mark to collectors.

Original cast iron is lighter, and does generally have gate marks, and it's unfortunately in that vague gray area for putting originals at risk. It's pretty sturdy, but it's potentially breakable--like using an original gun. In most situations, I agree that we can recreate an 1860s world without cast iron, but there are some contexts where it's appropriate to use cast iron, and in those cases some decision needs to be made about what's accurate enough vs. affordable enough vs. responsible enough, at the current state of reproductions. No easy answer.

My wife and I use original cast iron in a controllable indoor environment, but even where it's historically appropriate, I wouldn't take originals out where there's more risk of them getting knocked around and broken, like in a wagon, and in that case would accept the use of reasonable reproductions (without, say, a large modern logo embossed no them). Others might never use originals, or use them regardless of risk, just depends.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[markj]

Re: Proper soldiers skillet "spider" etc.

Hi,

Has anyone had any trouble receiving items from Frank Ellis? I ordered a skillet from him over a month ago and have not, as yet, received it. Does he sometimes run into production bottlenecks?

Thanks,

Mark Jaeger

[CSA Engineer]

Mid to late war storage boxes?

Good Day Pards--I want to make an Authentic looking box to hold all my gear and extras while at events. Does any one know of a good source on how to build one, or have some tips on this? Thanks in Advance...


Pvt. Michael Moffett
Co. E 3rd Regiment
Confederate Engineers