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The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

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  • #61
    Answer in a nutshell ... Yes.

    Basically, all of the 3-band Enfield repros are repros of the so-called 4th Model P1853 Enfield, which type was *generally* not exported in the early 1860s.

    There *were* London Armoury Co. guns of this type exported to America - could have been puchasers from either side. These weren't common, but they *were* there. These guns would have had the type of furniture pieces found on the repros. Trouble is, their markings were different.

    For just a little bit of history, when the original Parker-Hale company in England started making their repros in the late 1970s, they used a set of gauges from the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, which turned out parts for the 4th Model P53 (except, for some reason I have never discovered, the upper sling swivel was wrong). So the Parker-Hale (the original one) is basically a copy of the RSAF-Enfield produced 4th Model P53, which would *not* have been exported to the US or CS (this is probably one Enfield "fact" that really does hold true).

    When Euroarms and (later) Armi-Sport in Italy started making their repro P53s in the early 80s, they basically copied the Parker-Hale repro (my 1982-vintage Euroarms has internal lock parts that have faint P-H markings on them - from when the Euroarms makers copied the P-H parts). Euroarms did at one time have a lock marking that was for the London Armoury Co. (the correct L.A.Co. mark - not the spelled-out name that you usually see), which made their repro more "correct" than others (at least as far as the lockplate markings went).

    Armi-Sport tried to make their repro more like a 3rd Model P53 - the type that comprised the vast majority of WBTS Enfields - but all they did was change the barrel bands (and their barrel band really isn't a very good repro, but it is more like the 3rd Model type). But the Armi-Sport guns still have incorrect sling swivels and lock screw washers (unless they have changed them recently - but if so, I haven't seen one). That is, incorrect for the standard commercially-made P53 that was sent to America.

    The new "Parker-Hale," being made in Italy as well, would suffer these same shortcomings.

    OK, to cut this long story short - you have to do the same sort of de-farbing to your Parker-Hale as you would do to a Euroarms or Armi-Sport. You just have a better quality gun to start with (assuming it's an old British P-H).

    Geoff Walden

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    • #62
      Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

      This is an older, 1970s, English made Parker-Hale. By the way, Gibbs is a part of Navy Arms.

      Gil Tercenio
      Gil Davis Tercenio

      "A man with a rifle is a citizen; a man without one is merely a subject." - the late Mark Horton, Captain of Co G, 28th Ala Inf CSA, a real hero

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      • #63
        Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

        Congrats. As Geoff has indicated, you own a well made piece. That said, you've still got a lot of de-farbing to do.

        Cordially,

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        • #64
          Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

          You may want to get the book by Geoff, "How to Authenticize Your Reproduction Enfield." I got mine for $5 through the lady who runs the Citizens Companion magazine a few years back. A GREAT resource for what you will want to defarb and lots of pictures of examples.

          It was great because I not only learned about what just needed to be done to my rifle, but also WHY it was to be done. It's one of those things like "Sure, a sack coat made by Jones Smith is authentic, but WHY is it so authentic."

          Geoff, is this publication still available?
          Paul Boccadoro
          Liberty Rifles

          “Costumes are just lies that you wear.” –Stephen Colbert

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          • #65
            Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

            Originally posted by MuleyGil
            This is an older, 1970s, English made Parker-Hale. By the way, Gibbs is a part of Navy Arms.
            Or is it the other way around? When Val Forget Sr. passed away, Val Jr., the owner of Gibbs Rifle Co., took over Navy Arms and moved it from NJ to Martinsburg, WV. Semantics, I guess.
            Michael McComas
            drudge-errant

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            • #66
              Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

              Originally posted by MuleyGil
              This is an older, 1970s, English made Parker-Hale. By the way, Gibbs is a part of Navy Arms.

              Gil Tercenio
              Gil
              If it is one of the older P-H muskets then you might be further ahead financially if you sold it to someone that wanted a good shooter and then purchased a defarbed Armisport for reenacting. You would also not have to worry about that pesky P-H stock cartouche. If you go to www.n-ssa.org and click on there bulletin board you could post it there for free. I think the going price for an older P-H is about $700. but I could be wrong about the value.
              Terry

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              • #67
                Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                I second Terry's advice. Older P-H's are very good shooters. And their stocks and barrels are more like originals. Lighter like the originals, too. I wouldn't mess with it by defarbing.
                Hey, you should keep it, get another reenacting gun and defarb that, and then hook up with an N-SSA team! For me it's the closest to the real firing line as one can get. 400 or so folks throwing lead! Gets your gear looking right, too. It's a grin!

                Regards,
                Rob McFarland
                Co E, 2MD Fifes and Drums
                1st MD Infantry, N-SSA

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                  Originally posted by 2MDF&D
                  I second Terry's advice. Older P-H's are very good shooters. And their stocks and barrels are more like originals. Lighter like the originals, too. I wouldn't mess with it by defarbing.
                  Hey, you should keep it, get another reenacting gun and defarb that, and then hook up with an N-SSA team! For me it's the closest to the real firing line as one can get. 400 or so folks throwing lead! Gets your gear looking right, too. It's a grin!

                  Regards,
                  Rob McFarland
                  Co E, 2MD Fifes and Drums
                  1st MD Infantry, N-SSA
                  I have to agree with Rob and Terry on this! Many teams would welcome you aboard without hesitation. In addition, you can be "dual enrolled" so to speak in both a reenacting unit and N-SSA team, and particpate in each as much/as little as you wish. Check it out!

                  Where are you from, maybe I could direct you to someone who can help with this!
                  ~ Chris Hubbard
                  Robert L. Miller Award Winner No. 28 May, 2007
                  [url]www.acwsa.org[/url]

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                  • #69
                    Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                    I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions. Any other hints will be also be welcome.

                    I bought this P-H in January of this year, but I haven't seen it yet, as I have been working out of town, waaay out of town. The most common weapon I see is an AK-47. My P-H is sitting at a friend's house in IL, so I can't tell if it needs to have the lockscrew washers replaced w/ square eared ones or not, and I haven't handled a P-H in about 5 years.

                    I was an active reenactor from 1991 to 1995, carrying a Euroarms 1853 Enfield.

                    I did N-SSA from 1970 to 1976 and yes, I really enjoyed it. That was my first intention, to get a good shooting gun. Now, I want to have an Enfield on the line that shoots good AND looks correct. When I get home, I'll be looking for a N-SSA unit in the SW VA/ Western NC/ East TN area that wears an authentic uniform. My old units didn't.

                    If finances permit, I'll have two muskets, one for lead and one for living history. If not, I promise to pull the breachplug before shooting blanks. I have been told that I'm a little anal when it comes to safety and I consider that a compliment.

                    Who would be the best vendor to get the proper bands & sling swivels? Lodgewood?

                    BTW, I did some research in the early '90s & my great, great grandfather, Cpl Elijah Sanford Davis of Co. I, 6th Alabama Inf, carried a 1853 Enfield.

                    Once again, thanks for all of the help. Like most of us reading this forum, I wish to be as authentic as possible, living history or N-SSA.

                    Gil Davis Tercenio
                    Gil Davis Tercenio

                    "A man with a rifle is a citizen; a man without one is merely a subject." - the late Mark Horton, Captain of Co G, 28th Ala Inf CSA, a real hero

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                      Gil,

                      When you get the chance, email me at p58enfield@rica.net and I'll put you in touch with the just the team you're looking for.

                      Stay safe,

                      Michael McComas
                      Michael McComas
                      drudge-errant

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                        I purchased a PH 1853 in 1980. During the intervening years I've done several things toward defarbing, ie, refinishing the stock, new barrel bands, removed offensive markings from the piece overall , and had the correct markings applied, etc.The only thing missing was a correct lockplate. I'm happy to say that recently I accquired a "repro 1862 Tower Plate from Lodgewood. I think I can say that I have now accquired a totally defarbed piece.The lockplate accepted all of the orginal PH workings with the exception that I needed to rethread the old lock plate screws to 10/32nd, and I needed to remove a "smidge" of the mortise along the leading edge.
                        Anyway, because I've posted here in the past about the lockplate problem . I thought it appropiete for me to spread the word.
                        It's finally done!
                        Barry Dusel

                        In memory: Wm. Stanley, 6th PA Cav. Ernst C. Braun, 9th PA. Cav. John E. Brown & Edwin C. Brown, 23rd PVI

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                          Originally posted by Michael McComas
                          Gil,

                          When you get the chance, email me at p58enfield@rica.net and I'll put you in touch with the just the team you're looking for.

                          Stay safe,

                          Michael McComas
                          Mike-
                          I hope you mean the 34th!
                          Paul Manzo
                          Never had I seen an army that looked more like work......Col. Garnet Wolseley

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Defarbing a Parker-Hale 1853

                            Paul,

                            Of course, who else is there? I sent him email addresses for Bill and Ken.

                            See you in two weeks!
                            Michael McComas
                            drudge-errant

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Linseed Oil Stocks/ Defarbing Stocks

                              I found a source for "raw linseed oil", has anyone had any experience refurbishing or maintaining their rifle stocks with the modern version of raw L.O.? How long did it take to dry? Did you use pure, raw linseed oil?

                              Curt Heinrich Schmidt had a great write up on this subject on the old forum, about removing the polyurethane from repo weapons and replacing it with the raw linseed oil vs. the boiled version which contained chemical dryers. I also remember some comment about mixing a 50/50 blend of boiled and raw, however; I have read that this may cause the finish to skin or peel.



                              Anways I know a few folks that could use the information. Also any information on period stocks, especially replacement stocks for the current Armi-Sport Enfiled would be appreciated.


                              Greg Deese
                              Gregory Deese
                              Carolina Rifles-Living History Association

                              http://www.carolinrifles.org
                              "How can you call yourself a campaigner if you've never campaigned?"-Charles Heath, R. I. P.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Linseed Oil Stocks/ Defarbing Stocks

                                Greg: I have used both boiled and raw linseed oil. Boiled linseed oil (BLO) tends to dry faster (24 hours) because it has addititives. Raw oil can take days to dry, depending on humidity and ventilation. On some woods, BLO darkens the wood a bit more than the raw variety.

                                I usually hand rub a *light* coat of BLO on a prepared stock. The stock of course needs to have any varish or other finish removed. If a stock has already been oiled some time it the past, it can take longer to dry as the linseed oil will have a tough time sinking in...
                                Ed Czarnecki
                                [I][FONT=Century Gothic]Co. C 2nd US Inf.[/FONT] [/I][FONT=Century Gothic]"Sykes' Regulars"[/FONT]
                                www.sykesregulars.org
                                www.usregulars.com

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