The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[Clsinclair]

Re: My new enfield

I paid $1,200 for a type II Enfield at the Horse Soldier in Gettysburg about 5 years ago. Mine is in excellent condition and it seems you also got a good deal. You can take it apart and find inspector marks in the lockplate and under the barrel. Some type II's were made in the US and exported to England. Also the US did import some short rifles dated 1856 to the States. I do know of once Regiment of Hagoods Division that were issued the short rifles. I have a book regarding the P-1853 and it does state that those made in the US were of inferior work compared to the ones made in England.

Regards,

Claude Sinclair

[Johan Steele]

Re: My new enfield

I paid $1,200 for a type II Enfield at the Horse Soldier in Gettysburg about 5 years ago. Mine is in excellent condition and it seems you also got a good deal. You can take it apart and find inspector marks in the lockplate and under the barrel. Some type II's were made in the US and exported to England. Also the US did import some short rifles dated 1856 to the States. I do know of once Regiment of Hagoods Division that were issued the short rifles. I have a book regarding the P-1853 and it does state that those made in the US were of inferior work compared to the ones made in England.

Regards,

Claude Sinclair

Actually as a note everything I have read of the Windsor Made P53's is that they were every bit as good as those made at Enfield and second to none in quality. Several States, private militias purchsed numbers as well as some being available on the open market; they were well regarded. Unlike most of the non Enfield or London Armory made arms they were interchangeable. The JP Moore/Colt manufactured P53's were made up from parts made in England and merely assembled in the US.

Both the P56, P58 & P60 made their way into the US, thoigh the P61 in EXTREMELY small numbers. THe US imported about 15,000 IIRC

[Craig L Barry]

Re: James River

Taking nothing away from the Lodgewood Mfg P-53s, which are excellent, the JRAs are also very good accuracy modified repro Enfields, especially for the money. For example, JRAs gunstock re-contouring is included in their price but an upcharge of $150 if performed by Lodgewood Mfg. The JRA actually feels more like an original in your hands as it correctly copies the thinness through the wrist that most other de-farbed repros lack. The JRA also gets the "football shaped" lock mortise profile properly duplicated.

For example, one particularly grating aspect of the lack of quality control with the current Italian reproduction Enfield is excessive trigger play. This results from cutting the trigger mortise too shallow for the assembly so the trigger is placed too far from the sear. In hand finishing their gun stocks, James River gets the trigger placed more deeply in the trigger mortise where it more properly fits. James River offers their own "larger" hammers as the repros are famously undersized, and so on. To my knowledge none of the other service providers offer a more correctly proportioned (larger) hammer.

One additional step in the form of stock refinishing with boiled linseed oil is recommended. None of the current service providers seem to get this part right...

[Jim Mayo]

Re: My new enfield

Has anyone found information on the numbers of bar on band Enfields imported?

I have always wondered if these were similar enough lumped into the 2 band or short rifle numbers.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

Curt is correct, V.R is not "wrong" (per se) for a Civil War-era Birmingham commercial export Enfield, just less common. The V.R mark by itself does not mean the Enfield was a government gun, unless accompanied by the requisite inspectors marks, acceptance marks (like WD, and broad arrow) and British government barrel proof marks.

Some explanation is probably in order on what the mark does mean. The “V.R” mark or "royal cypher" is an abbreviation for “Victoria Regina” or Queen Victoria. The royal cypher consisted of the two letter abbreviation of the reigning monarch under a stylized crown, the exact appearance of which varied. For example:

Cypher Meaning Dates
G.R. Georgius Rex 1760 to 1820
V.R Victoria Regina 1837 to 1901
E.R Edwardius Rex 1901 to 1910

The perplexing variety of marks existed because the lock plate stamps found on commercial (made for export) P-53 Enfield rifle-muskets were not regulated by the British government. Some of the London commercial gun-makers (other than LA Co) exported P-53 Enfield rifle-muskets with little to no marks on the lock plate. Other London gun-makers like Barnett marked their lock plates "Tower" under the crown behind the hammer. The V.R mark is found on almost all LA Co produced P-53 Enfield rifle-muskets, whether made for the British government or produced commercially for export.

[Johan Steele]

Re: My new enfield

Has anyone found information on the numbers of bar on band Enfields imported?

I have always wondered if these were similar enough lumped into the 2 band or short rifle numbers.

What we know is that both the US & CS imported them w/ the CS importing more. US imported 15-16,000. Judging from my own research the P56 Rifle seems to have been the majority imported by the US.

THe CS had a real liking for the "medium Enfield" w/ men like Morgon & Forrest preferring them to most other arms. My own research puts quite a few of them in the hands of CS Cav in the west.

As to the bar on band or P56 #2... my own belief is that it was rarer than the P56 yet more common than either the P58 or P60... lets not talk about the Naval version (which is the Armi-Sport Copy). We know that the CS ended up w/ about 500 for use in the CS Navy. Other than that... I don't believe more than a handful of the P58 Naval Rifle saw use by the average CS soldier; though we know of their use by the CSMC. Mt own view of the P56 #2 would be a guess of anout 20% of the total P56 Rifles imported to the CS were this model. Keep in mind said research is merely anecdotal and related more to my recent conversations w/ some collectors... how accurate it is I don't know.

[Clsinclair]

Re: My new enfield

James Gunners report on the New York made Enfield and imported to England from the "1853 Pattern Rifled Musket".

". . . The stocks are of inferior Walnut Wood, very light and open in the grain and are somewhat liable to split and break. . . barrels appear to be made of cast steel 2 ft. 9 in. long very stout and heavy (particularly at the nose end) weighing on an average 5 lbs each are clean and free from flaws and are well Rifled. The bores are rather irregular in size one admits the .580 rejecting Plug, and some will not admit the .577 . . . . . . . . . The stocking letting in of the mountings, shaping, and making off the Stocks are well executed, except the cutting of the wood which is not neatly and cleanly performed . . . the whole of the various parts will interchange from one stock to another without requiring fitting or filing."

The firm in NY produced 10,400 for the British Government. Goes on to say that in terms of standard of material and workmanship, the American rifles fell short of British requirements in may respects. Many of the imported Enfields were never used in England.

I do have a British made Enfield and an American made Springfield. The Enfield's stock is much better than the stocks of the three Springfields and two Harper Ferry's that I have owned. England used the heart of the Walnut tree to make stocks.

Regards,
Claude Sinclair

[Gary of CA]

Re: My new enfield

Pard, at $800 you did gude. When I attended the Civil War gun show in Nashville a few years back, the average price was about $1200.

[Tarheel]

Re: My new enfield

It is interesting to note that there is incontravertible evidence that Type 2 Patt 1853 Enfields saw service with the Confederate army. I refer to the well-known photograph of the three Georgian infantrymen in caped overcoats, I can't get to my library at the moment to provide a more detailed description, but the photograph has appeared in many publications. From memory, the left hand fellow is wearing a top hat of some form and I believe the description notes that one of them was killed at Malvern Hill. However the chap on the right of the photograph is carrying a Type 2. You can easily identify the wider top band and the band springs are also evident. Hope this helps.
Patrick Reardon,
The Lazy Jack Mess, UK

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

The JS Anchor stamp was copied off a Birmingham Tower 1863 (C. Swinburn) that was borrowed from me. The JS Anchor marking was not on the lock plate and I have no clue where that idea came from...certainly not from the original from which the stamp was copied. The only marks on the lock plate of the original are "Tower", "1863" and the "crown" behind the hammer.

[Johan Steele]

Re: My new enfield

Claude, not trying to argue here just curious as the info you have provided clashes dramiticly w/ much of mine. From the #'s mentioned Gunner could only have been referring to the Windsor, made in Ct not NY, which as I understand it were considered comparable in most ways to the London & Enfield Armory P53's and considerably superior to the Non Natl Armory manufactured P53's. As to the Walnut the Windsor were manufactured w/ American Black Walnut. There were 25,000 contracted for and the 10,000 odd delivered. I believe only about 16-17000 were actually manufactured before the contract was cancelled and those ended up on the secondary market w/ some being purchased by various private & state militia's. Some were offered for open sale in Charleston in I believe in 1859.

My own experiance w/ Springfield pattern arms in comparison to the Enfield is literally the opposite of yours. That said the original Enfields I have most consistantly handled have been Birmingham trade arms. Those I have handled have a considerably poorer fit & finish than any of the original Springfield pattern arms.

I know Whitney made up a couple hundred Type 2's... IIRC the difference was in the rear sight and there was some question of the quality. I believe those were also made up for the Brit govt for Crimea War but I don't think any were ever accepted into the Brit service. Gunner's comments/complaints are quite similar to those registered by other later manufactured Whitney's. Do you think those might have been the American made Enfields Gunner is reffering to?

I do not believe he could be talking of the JP Moore made parts guns as they were manufactured, I believe, in 62 & maybe some in 63. I believe they were all of Type 3 variety. Though again I believe there were some questions of their quality as well.

James Gunners report on the New York made Enfield and imported to England from the "1853 Pattern Rifled Musket".

". . . The stocks are of inferior Walnut Wood, very light and open in the grain and are somewhat liable to split and break. . . barrels appear to be made of cast steel 2 ft. 9 in. long very stout and heavy (particularly at the nose end) weighing on an average 5 lbs each are clean and free from flaws and are well Rifled. The bores are rather irregular in size one admits the .580 rejecting Plug, and some will not admit the .577 . . . . . . . . . The stocking letting in of the mountings, shaping, and making off the Stocks are well executed, except the cutting of the wood which is not neatly and cleanly performed . . . the whole of the various parts will interchange from one stock to another without requiring fitting or filing."

The firm in NY produced 10,400 for the British Government. Goes on to say that in terms of standard of material and workmanship, the American rifles fell short of British requirements in may respects. Many of the imported Enfields were never used in England.

I do have a British made Enfield and an American made Springfield. The Enfield's stock is much better than the stocks of the three Springfields and two Harper Ferry's that I have owned. England used the heart of the Walnut tree to make stocks.

Regards,
Claude Sinclair

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: My new enfield

Jim:

Hey, thanks for posting the pics! Would it be too much trouble if you could post close-up photos of the Lower and upper bands? I sure would like to see the stock configuration at the lower band area!:D
respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: My new enfield

Hallo!

" The Enfield's stock is much better than the stocks of the three Springfields and two Harper Ferry's that I have owned. England used the heart of the Walnut tree to make stocks."

Herr Claud...

Would you elaborate on "much better" please?
More toward heartwood than sapwood, grain, fit, finish, etc., etc,?

I have spent my adult life immersed and surrounded by "Springfields and Enfields," and am curious.

Thanks!

Curt

[Clsinclair]

Re: My new enfield

All my information comes from "The British Soldier's Firearm From Smoothbore to Smallbore 1850 to 1864" by Dr. C.H. Roads.

[bushwacker]

DeFarbed Enfield

Fellas,
I am wondering if anyone could tell me how to defarb an Enfield. I hear all of this defarbing talk and wonder what the standard is. Why do companies make lock plates and barrels with the wrong markings? Is there documentation that shows what each lockplate should look like? Where can I get a defarbed rifle.

Thank you