The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[Tucker49th]

Re: DeFarbed Enfield

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...&l=80&catid=14.
Try doing a search on Defarb or Enfield in the search engine.

[The Lonely Reenactor]

Re: DeFarbed Enfield

Mr. Perry,
The use of the search function above will reveal several good threads on this very subject and should provide some, if not most, of the answers to your questions.;)



Marty Rubin
Tater Mess

[LHV1861]

Re: DeFarbed Enfield

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1864/enf/enfauth.htm

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4498&highlight=linseed+oil

Hope that helps some.


Jeff Felton

Liberty Hall Volunteers
Co. I 4th Va.

[Tim Prince]

Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

Attached to give some images to the conversation are three pictures of original P-1853 lockplates in my current inventory.

The first is a totally unmarked lock (on the outside) that has only the double line engraving (typically seen on Birmingham made locks) and nothing else. It has matching assembly numbers on the internal parts. I belive that it was made in Belgium on contract (likely for a Birmingham maker). It was left blank to be stamped as appropriate by the maker when used.

The second is an RSAF produced lock, with all the appropriate British acceptance marks, etc. Note the "VR" under the Crown. There is no engraved, "double line" boarder.

The third is a Joseph Bourne of Birmingham contract lock. The makers name is on the inside, and the outside is marked with only the Crown, TOWER and the date. As is typical of Birmingham locks, this one has the "double line" engraving.

To throw a complete wrench into all of this, back in February I had the opportunity to handle a well used P-1853 Type II (hard band rifle musket) that was produced in Birmingham in 1856. The gun was covered with the the typical British War Department acceptance marks. The gun was also stamped clearly on the flat, opposite the lock, with the I.C. stamp that most current experts consider the "Isaac & Campbell" mark. Upon the publication of a new book in the works, we will learn what that stamp really means, but suffice to say that is not "Isaac & Campbell", but most assuredly Confederate. This mark made me look for another mark that should accompany it, and sure enough, I found a well worn Sinclair & Hamilton Co mark immediately in front of the butt plate tang. It was one of the early style marks with the S/HC/Arrow and not the later SH/C (sometimes with and without arrow) mark that was used on later imports. So here is a definitively Confederate used gun, with definitive British War Department marks- the type of gun that we constantly say should not exist and should not be so marked. The gentleman who showed me the gun was actually using it as a shooter and had no idea that it was a CS gun. When I told him about the the marks and the potential value of the gun he was floored. He had litterally been shooting it for 20 years, thinking it was just an old British military musket.

I just thought I'd share that little jewel with you. Maybe a type II in CS hands is not that odd after all......

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

In a sense, that gentleman is shooting an old British military Enfield. After its service to the Crown, could that type II Enfield have been retired as obsolete and sold off into the commercial gun trade? Or did it appear that it was sold as government surplus direct from the British government Tower Armoury to the CS government? That would be odd. In other words, were any of the British Army marks struck over or were there condemnation or re-furbishing marks? It is rare to find British government marked P-53s with US Civil War provenance. I ran across at least one other (a LA Co 1861) in doing research for "The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historial Accuracy" (see p. 28, footnote # 9).

The one thing I have definitely learned from a study of the Civil War-era P-53 Enfield is "never say never". Not many of us have had an opportunity to closely inspect more than a fraction of one percent of the hundreds of thousands P-53 rifle-muskets produced during the early 1860s, at most. Very interesting.

[bushwacker]

Defarbing Enfield

Thank you for reminding me to do a search first. I almost posted another repeat.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

Tim:

Since you provided that IC is not (Saul) Isaac, Campbell & Co, and if it is a Confederate mark, and it located opposite the lock, then it is probably a paid inspector with the initials I.C. Perhaps one who inspected Enfields for SH&C and S.Isaac, Campbell & Co? Is this in the right ballpark? If so, I can hazard a guess, but let's wait for the publication...Everybody likes a surprise.

[Jim Mayo]

Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

Tim:

Since as you state IC is not (Saul) Isaac, Campbell & Co, and if it is a Confederate mark, then it is probably a paid inspector with the initials I.C. who inspected Enfields for SH&C and S.Isaac, Campbell & Co. Is this in the right ballpark? If so, I can hazard a guess, but let's wait for the publication...Everybody likes surprises.

My guess would be Inspected Condemned and then sold for export. Of course that is just a guess. Sign me up for a copy of the book.

Any word on when it is to be published?

[Tim Prince]

Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

All,

The book in question has been in the works for some time, with some of the biggest names in Enfield research working on it. It had been stalled for some time, but should see the light of day in the next year or so.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

A friend of mine, Craig Barry referred me to search "Blockade Runner" and "de-farb" & see what came up. I found this thread and after reading decided to pop in.

I am the guy employed by Blockade Runner to make their de-farbs and do other gunsmithing work for them. I have been de-farbing for them for going on 3 years now, and learning with each gun how to improve. I look back on my first few with some embarrassment. My how cheap they looked back then compared to now. I'd love to locate some of those first guns and re-do them now.

I am much indebted to Craig Barry and Tim Prince for educating me on how to improve. When Jerry Smith (Blockade Runner owner) asked me if I'd like to de-farb for him, I asked "what's that?":D No kidding, I asked if he wanted me to drag the gun through the gravel to make it look "real" when he said de-farbing was a term used to define the process of making something look "real." Keep in mind I was only a gunsmith and had just very recently started re-enacting, so I was not really into the lifestyle at that time - yet.

Jerry, Craig and Tim had been working on the idea for some time and Jerry had ordered stamps from India. The stamps actually looked like some guy in India had made them on a railroad spike by hand and each stamp was dime-sized. The first couple of guns were really bad because of this. After cursing these first few guns, I contacted Craig myself and e-mailed back and forth with him. Through him I learned what needed to be done so I ordered good quality stamps and free-hand drew the designs for the stamps. I exactly measured the stamps off of an original BSAT Enfield of Craig's collection.

Every time I meet one of these 2 gentlemen, they tell me some new trick to add more original quality. I look at originals from their collections and take rubs or pictures and measurements frequently. I am about to start making an E.Bond Enfield based on one Tim had at a local show recently to supplement the Swinburn and Wilson that I copy from Craig's collection.

It is my intention to be the best de-farber of Enfields around, but I know I am not there yet. I do it as a hobby, not a business. As such, I am slow, but am not interested in mass-production even though Jerry sure would like me to be.;)

As for the JS Anchor stamps, the original I copied is one Craig had until he recently donated it to the archive at Stones River Nat'l Battlefield. It has the anchor at the trigger guard tang and also on top at the buttplate tang. I am no longer stamping lock plates unless the customer asks for that. I saw an original London Arms Enfield lock that had that stamp in that exact placement, a little crooked while I was researching the stamp. The picture was on-line but try as I might I have been unable to relocate the picture for a long time now. I am guessing the contractor must have stamped the lock for purchase and it was assembled into a gun, but I of course cannot verify that. And, since I cannot relocate the photo I am telling potential customers that it may not be correct there, but if they want it I will stamp it. We have found that customers ordering the de-farb CSA contracts generally specify that they do want the anchor on the lock, including the other 2 known placements. So, I give them what they want even though it is probably in-correct.

I am recontouring stocks as much as practical. The Euro especially is a club and it takes an enormous amount of rasping and sanding to get it down even to Armi's size. I reshape the Euro's rear 2 bands to mimic the Palmer bands as best as practical but these bands cannot be made to exactly match Palmers. They are cast, so welding tabs on them is out of the question.

I have never used tung oil. For the past year I have only refinished them in real boiled linseed oil. The finish I started using which is the "secret recipe" Jerry initially wrote into the website was dark walnut stain "Minwax"! Hey, it did a great job sealing the wood and darkening it so don't laugh.:D We found when I switched to linseed, we had customers not happy with the lighter color when they saw it beside the walnut stained stocks, but I have since gotten away from stains. One problem we have is that we are so used to seeing originals that are dark that customers assume that is the "new" color as well. Wrong! Linseed darkens wood somewhat depending on the wood's natural grain and tone, but that darkness of the originals is from many coats of linseed over 140+ years plus general handling and dirt aged into the wood. I recently got one of those originals from Nepal a man wanted "de-farbed" and when I sanded and scraped the wood deeply enough to get marks out, the wood was as light as most any new stock wood. When I applied linseed to it, it was the same tone as the new stocks.

THis past week I sent a checklist to the Blockade Runner that I want them to fill out with customers to be sure I make what they want. In the past, customers ordered "de-farb Enfield" and the store handed me the gun and said "de-farb this" and so I had to guess what the customer wanted. Hopefully now I can be better organized on the things.

I hope you guys can give me constructive criticisms about my work from time to time and help me improve. I ma not an Enfield scholar by any means, so I rely on knowledge from the real experts out there to guide me to make real artforms out of our musketry.

Todd Watts
Christiana, TN

[Michael Comer]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Todd,

If you're the fellow doing the '42 Springfield nosepieces with the brass sight for Blockade Runner, I am very pleased with the one I got to replace my incorrect one. Took advantage of the $15 trade-in.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

I am not exactly positive of the "rules" on the Authentic Campaigner forum about recommending products and who are/are not approved vendors but I do know this much...The Watchdog is an approved vendor. The Watchdog published the book "The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy" in which Todd Watts "de-farbed" Enfield is reviewed along with the others. I would refer those interested in knowing more details to that review.

Worth noting...the workmanship on Watts proof house marks (Birmingham) and his barrel re-bluing will take the Pepsi Challenge against anybody. It is great to read (above) that Todd is now using boiled linseed oil on the stocks. I do not know of any other service provider that takes this necessary step. Todd is currently re-contouring an Enfield stock for me so that's one less thing for me to do when I get it back.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Approved vendor or not, if we can't come here and get an honest opinion about a product or service that we as hobbyists may need or want, then what's the point! As long as its honest and objective, I say speak your mind!

[Todd Watts]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Glad you are pleased with the nose band, Michael. Yes, I am the one doing those too. They are back ordered for eternity from what they tell me at The Blockade Runner.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Thanks Craig. I'll redo Hunter's gun all the way through while I have it and apply the "new" stamps I am now doing for your enjoyment. I need to anyway since the barrel rusted up pretty badly at Eddyville. Seems our camp location in the bottom of the bowl was not the best place for that little shower that came Friday night.

One thing I have noticed on the wood on the repros recently is that there is a lot with "sap wood" which is fine wood, but it has a total lack of pigmentation and grain curl. When linseed is applied, it simply turns this wood "creme color" unless I apply walnut stain to it. I assume this sort of wood was issued back then too, but the surviving examples of these have vanished from collections. But, back then they had larger walnut trees available and probably could have been more selective in wood quality, so it is possible they discarded sap wood stock blanks. The quality of the wood Armi Sport is supplying here recently has nose-dived. When I remove the parts I often find absolutely no stain or sealant under the barrel or trigger guard or inside the lock inlet. This has started to be the case from this manufacturer in just the past year. There is no stain even under the buttplate. Why they take the time to keep the stain off of these places is beyond me. It's be simpler and better to do the whole thing at once in a dip bath or spray than to mask off areas.

Armis make better de-farbs than Euros by the way. Their weight is closer to original and the stock is closer to original, plus they come with Palmer bands where the Euroarms has those later bands that have to be filed and still cannot be made into Palmers.