The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[Tim Prince]

Re: Never Say Never about Enfields

The index mark appears pretty consistently on the guns. Occasionally it is under the barrel, but usually very clear and visible on top. If it is not deeply struck, pitting can obliterate it. These show up consistently on Lorenz's as well.

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Never Say Never about Enfields

I spoke with Tim the weekend that he bought this gun, and had the chance to look over it briefly at the Mansfield Ohio Show. The pictures really dont do it justice when it comes to the condition of the Rifle.

Tim; I didnt really pay attention to the indexing mark, but was more concerned with some of the other stock cartouches. How is the mark created created? Is it a cold chisel strike or is it from a tool made specifically for the purpose of making the "INDEX MARK"?

In adidition, did you get the family name from the feller who you bought the gun from?

A very interesting rifle of exceptional quality.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Never Say Never about Enfields

John,

Do you believe that this indexing mark was original to the weapon at the time of manufacture or possibly an indication that the weapon has had the breech plug pulled for servicing ?

Scott,

I really don't know. I only know about the mark from my obervations of original examples, such as the one pictured. I first noticed it about 8 or 9 years ago. Since that time, I have noticed it on all the originals I have handled that weren't too pitted to show it.

However, to speculate, I think it was probably put there at the time of manufacture. These marks turn up on original US produced arms (as a simple strike mark, but under ther barrel, so as to be hidden when the barrel is installed) as well as repros. The function (again speculation) at the time of manufacture would be to give a gunsmith/armorer a way to index the barrel exactly after repair - incorrect indexing and the front site will be off and/or the bayonet lug, depending on model of musket.

I think subtle misalignment of the mark, however, is probably a pretty good indication that the plug was pulled at some point in time.

Interestingly, a M1 Garand I own has a similar strike mark to show the proper alignment of the front sight on the gas cylinder. ...but that discussion is for another internet forum. :tounge_sm

Great Stuff!!!

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Never Say Never about Enfields

There are those who would dismiss the CS inspection marks saying could have been added later, and so on. Yet I know of two or three others with a Confederate Civil War provenance and Brit Army marks, all LACo and all dated 1861 or earlier. This one is Tower, and dated 1860. It is probably more than safe to say that some unknown small number of British Army marked Enfields made it over to the Confederacy.

However, before we de-bunk this particular myth and begin stamping Brit Army proofs on our repros, we can probably all agree that these specimens are still relatively rare and they are definitely the exception to the norm. Were these government contract arms that were never delivered, and instead diverted to the Confederacy? Or is it being suggested that the British government supplied them to the Confederacy? If so, why go through SHC as a middleman? Or were these already in the gun trade, and ready for export thus procured by SHC and sold to the Confederacy? None of the weapons in question originated from the RSAF, and all known specimens are commercial contractor pieces. Is it possible that once the RSAF got up and running to capacity the Crown decided to sell off some of its inventory?

Maybe, or maybe not. There is period evidence that the British government was still entering commercial contracts for P-53s in late 1861, while the RSAF was fully operational, as more weapons than the RSAF could produce were required for their own needs. IIRC, LACo was filling a government contract when Caleb Huse first called on them in May 1861. I guess the question I have would be, why would a neutral government be diverting their own arms to the Confederacy and at the same time enter into commercial contracts to procure the same weapons for their own army? It seems very odd to operate against their own interests to assist a government they would not formally recognize.

In the final analysis, for our purposes the P.E.C. P-53 Civil War Enfield used extensively by both sides is still a London or Birmingham gun with commercial proof house marks. And while you can never say never with the Enfield, 99.99% of the p-53s used here were not British Army guns.

[Tim Prince]

Re: Never Say Never about Enfields

Craig,

My primary point was not to depict this as PEC. We all know how rare CS marked arms are in the first place, let alone one like this that also bears British government acceptance marks. What I was trying to point out was that those who regularly say that certain marks are never found on CW import Enfields are overstating the facts. They are uncommon, but do exist. The other point is that this gun walked the 2nd largest CW show in the US and the dealers who looked at it either missed the CS marks, or never got past the British marks. This is sort of a diamond in the rough story, look at every original Enfield closely, you never know what you might find! Don't dismiss a gun just because it has a VR under the Crown.

Todd,

No, I did not get the family name, but the gentleman took my card and promised to contact me if anyone at home had any more information about the gun.....

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Never Say Never about Enfields

We agree that V.R stamps are found on US Civil War P-53s. In The Civil War Musket, (Watchdog Publications 2006 p. 28 footnote # 9) it mentions that there are several LACs with Brit government markings, including the initials V.R under the crown that all LACs seem to have, with confirmed Confederate Civil War provenance. One was closely inspected doing the research for the book. The interesting thing about that particular gun was it had rack numbers identified to a soldier in Georgia, and the rack numbers corresponded with the original shipping docs coming off the first blockade runner "Bermuda" on September 18, 1861 which landed in Savannah. Hence, one can conclude commercial P-53 Enfields with British government acceptance marks and US Civil War provenance were not unknown, just very rare.

To your later point, which is 100% correct, even if another British government marked P-53 with CS provenance is never found, we do know there were at least a few and it further supports that one should "never say never" regarding any rule about the US Civil War Enfield. And that is about it. There is a huge difference in making that well known distinction and the bold statement "This gun could re-write quite a bit of what we accept as gospel about CW used Enfields." Since your new acquisition largely confirms what has already been written (and that I believe to be true) on the subject, I hope it can "rewrite the gospel". However, I know you agree we would need to find the answers to a great many questions before we can get there. We just don't know...the mystery is what fascinates us.

Glad you got your hands on that very fine specimen, Mr Prince. Thank you for sharing the pics.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

I thought there were Ward & Sons P-53s on the blockade runner "Bermuda" but I checked my notes and the maker was CW James, who uses a similar stock mark. IIRC, Ward & Son was a commercial Birmingham gun-maker that was fairly well known and one of several that used his firm's stock stamp not the more familiar Birmingham Small Arms Trade roundel.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: James River

I bought one of the last Dixie Gun Works US 1861 kits made by Miroku (Japanese). I had built two or three of them for others years ago, and decided to make one for myself before the last of them disappeared for good. There is a chapter in The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy (Watchdog 2006) on building the Dixie Gun Works kit, which was a little tricky and did not come with any instructions either.

I digress, one of the things that was a little odd about that gun was the lock plate lettering. You know how Japanese stuff sometimes appears to be out of scale, like 15/16 size or something? The lock plate lettering was like that, and you are to be excused if little details like that wouldn't bother you, but I had to do something about it. The problem, of course is that the lock plate is annealed, and the pressure of re-stamping could easily crack the plate. In other words, some skill beyond what I possess would be necessary. Let me hasten to add that there isn't a huge inventory of replacement parts like lock plates available for a repro that has been out of production a while.

The plate was sent to James River (JRA) to have it re-done with one of their Federal contractor US rifle-musket stamps. I chose JRA because the eagle on the lock plate most closely resembled the stamp used by Alfred Jenks (Bridesburg Armory) and Parkers' Snow & Co and JRA had both those particular contractor stamps as options. The eagle sure did not resemble any US Armory eagle.

Mark Hartmann (JRA) whined a little bit about the plate being annealed and so on, but he did the job and it came out absolutely great. I was very impressed. In fact, since Federal contractor produced US Model rifle muskets outnumbered US Springfield Armory output by about 2:1, it is a sound recommendation to have your US rifle-musket plate re-worked by JRA to duplicate a contractor and correct date or if you have a Euroarms or Pedersoli US 1861, replaced with an original plate.

[Marylander in Grey]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Gentlemen,
I recently purchased the very weapon in question. Other than the Proof stamp on the lock and the double engraving being alittle off in spots, I find it to be a superior defarb.
Mr watts is to be commended.
I bought it to be a loaner but after seeing it I will replace my '57 Springfield with it.
Todd if you ever find that photo of the lock plate with the proof please post it .
Keep up the good work.

[arsenal guard]

Enfield Defarbing

I have completed sanding my enfield repro stock. My next step is to apply the boiled linseed oil (blo).

Any suggestions on how to apply the BLO is very much appreciated.

thanks in advance.

Wade Sokolosky

[nick19thind]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Don't let any of it get on your skin.
Linseed oil contains chemicals that can cause cancer so be sure to wear rubber gloves.
Pour the oil into a bucket, fill it to the top with water. Apply with a brush

[CeeBeeRebel]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Don't let any of it get on your skin.
Linseed oil contains chemicals that can cause cancer so be sure to wear rubber gloves.

Crap. Oh well at least I have another item to blame besides all the cigarettes and snuff I've consumed. :tounge_sm On a more serious note go lightly at first and make several coats until you get the desired look you are wishing to achieve.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Hallo Herr Wade!

Remember the Power of the Search feature.... ;) :) :)

Here is one set of tips from an old posting:

Hallo Kameraden!

This is a brief Q & D (Quick & Dirty) “how -to” for improving the appearance of Italian reproduction firearm stocks. It is a “Quickie” method for those with less time and less desire to follow some of the other tips on “de-farbing.”

Original U.S. “Springfield and Harpers Ferry armory firearms had stocks that were made from Pennsylvania American Black Walnut (ABW), that were dipped in period boiled linseed oil sometimes to referred to as “hard oil.” (Note: NOT modern “boiled linseed oil).
Original British “Enfields” used Northern Italian Walnut or occasionally English beech.
Italian reproductions use Italian hardwoods (IH) or occasionally Northern Italian Walnut (NIW) (some use beech or basswood).

Stripping the poly finish from Italian stocks, or removing the “Italian oil,” and them reoiling with modern boiled linseed oil is a commonly accepted and often practiced so-called “de-farb” technique.
However, for Springfields, the grain pattern and color of the NIW does not look like ABW. (Fine for Enfields, though.)

To get NIW’s ,and to get sundry IH’s, to look something more closer to ABW used on Springfields, I recommend this short-cut, quickie technique. Please refer to the archived threads/posts for greater detail, or detail on sliming the forestock, wrist, or butt, etc.). While we are stuck with grain pattern and can at best hide it with darker stain, we can replicate color,

1. Disassemble the gun.
2. Using “Dad’s” brand stripper (in my experience, I have found this band superior to any other I have tried), or any other quality stripper, remove the poly-urethane “dip” coating, or “oil-finish“ from the stock.
It may take 4-5 applications. I use “Dad’s” which bubbles up and can be scraped carefully with a dull knife.
For the “oil,” I use an old towel to wick and raise the oil, as well as stock color/stain (which is often more like brown shoe polish to hide poor wood).
3. Lightly, carefully sand the wood with 120, and 220 sandpaper- being careful not to “round” crisp edges or mortising- to “open” the sealed surface of the wood. When “open,” final sand with 440 or so to remove any trace of scratches (they fill in with stain and appear like dark lines if not removed…)
4. Mix up a 50/50% mixture of Tandy Leather's Dark Brown leather dye, and lacquer thinner. Apply a test spot to the barrel channel or butt. This is to check how your particular piece of wood will react. Some wood will shift the dye to yellow ranges, others to red (a common problem if one uses “walnut” rifle stock stain, as I have a comrade with some nice red "cherry" looking stocks).
That usually means, for your particular piece of wood, you will need more dye in the dye/thinner solution.
5. Apply a medium “coat” or application of dye/thinner, being sure to be even with no concentrations or runs. Dry stock wood will drink this in, and appear dark. Allow to penetrate into the wood for 2-5 minutes. (Wear surgical gloves unless you want brown hands...)
6. Using a piece of towel slightly dampened with lacquer thinner, gently wipe down the wood. The thinner will “lift” surplus dye and the towel will “rub off” some. This is how one controls the color, as well as “grain coverage.”
7. Repeat Step 6, twice or three times (depending upon how the wood is behaving, and how dark you want the stock to appear. Surviving originals often appear blackish, but this is due to the hard oil finish taking dirt and grime over the years, as well as from the hard oil acting as varnish- which as on oil paintings darkens and blackens with age and exposure. (Note: The color will lighten slightly when oiled, and the color will fade over time due to sunlight.)
8. Color is a tricky thing on undarkened originals as the ACW or NIW varies tree to tree, and where the wood was cut from the tree. Some will appear light, other dark. I try to find sample references in originals, or sometimes colored pictures (never exact due to camera lighting and printing), and duplicate that.
But to hide “bad Italian wood,” I tend to go on the darker side of ABW ranges.
9. Mix up a mixture of 2 ounces of Laurel Mountain Stock Finish (not their sealer) for the “hard oil” properties, 2 ounces of Lacquer Thinner, and 1 ounce of Japan Dryer. (Half that will do for most stocks…).

Apply a heavy coat with a lint free rag. Allow to soak in and penetrate for 2-3 minutes. Wipe of the excess. Allow to dry. The Japan Dryer radically accelerates drying time, down to 1-2 hours an application.
Steel wool with 0000 Steel Wool to reduce grain that have popped up.

Apply a light film with a lint free rag. Allow to soak in and penetrate for 2-3 minutes. Wipe of the excess. Allow to dry. The Japan Dryer radically accelerates drying time, down to 1-2 hours an application.
Lightly steel wool with 0000 Steel Wool to reduce grain that have popped up.

Apply a very light film coat with a few drops in the palm of your hand.. Allow to soak in and penetrate for 2-3 minutes. Wipe of the excess. Allow to dry. The Japan Dryer radically accelerates drying time, down to 1-2 hours an application.
Lightly steel wool with 0000 Steel Wool to reduce grain that have popped up.

10. Most woods will now have a uniform, dull satin or “egg shell” look to them as found on originals. Do not apply further coats once this even “slight sheen” has appeared, as the 4th or 5th application may start sealing the wood under a semi-high gloss like a modern hunting rifle!

11. Using 0000 Steel Wool and oil (like 3-in-1 brand) gently work the stock to cut any excess shine or sheen. (I also rub the stock down with Birchwood Casey’s Stock Finish, which contains pumice and acts as “rottenstone” for a period slight “egg shell” sheen (look an excellent to mint original stocks for what this appears like).

12. Reassemble the gun.

13. Wax the stock with a 50/50% mix of beef or mutton tallow and beeswax, and even as periodic “maintenance.”

I have refinished stocks using this method in one afternoon of a few hours of “easy work.” (While I would recommend the better, and longer method and “mixes” found in the “de-farb” posts- IMHO this also produces a much more “period looking" Springfield and Enfield stock with little effort, little cash (cheaper if more than one comrade joins in) and little time invested… ;-)

(Hint: Look at the originals…make your gun look like them, not an Italian reproductions!)

Others’ mileage may vary.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Former CW Gunmaker Mess

Curt

[C.R. Henderson]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

I've always just worn gloves and used a small pail and a natural bristle brush. Put on a light coat and let it soak in for a few days. Re-coat when the first is dry. Remember that the heavier the coat, the longer it takes to dry. It took 3 coats on mine and I use 3 in one oil for periodic mainenence. If my stock starts looking "ashy" or dry, I recoat it with 3 in one when I'm cleaning the barrel- usually with the oil patch that I have run down the barrel and wiped everything else down with. The wood will darken up considerably with the application of oil.

[Frank J. Aube]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

If you are in need of the correct hardware and swivels with screws shoot me a pm I will give them to you for what I paid for them... I purchased them a couple of years ago and never used them. I ended up buying a really nice defarbed one from James River Aesenal, Excellent workmanship

Sincereley

Frank J. Aube