The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[arsenal guard]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Thanks to all who posted suggestions.

Beyond the point of no return, I have crossed the LD and rubbed the first coat into the stock.

Wade Sokolosky

[arsenal guard]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Frank,

sent you a PM.

thanks

Wade Sokolosky

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Are you moving the manufacture's markings to the underside of the barrel?

If you were planning to just remove them don't because in some states that is consider a felony defacing of the firearm.

I know (from my uncle the lawyer) moving them to another spot on the gun barrel is ok, just removing them is a felony.

[GWagner]

Re: Enfield Defarbing

Adding some Japan Dryer to the oil helps in the drying process. I actually use 8 parts oil, 1 part mineral spirits, and 1 part japan dryer.

Galen Wagner
Alabama

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

As Geoff Walden put it "never say never about the Enfield". However, I think that photo of the JS anchor on the lock might have been something else. A government stamp like a crown/arrow or something? To my knowledge, Confederate inspector marks like the JS anchor or the SHC cypher were stamped in the wood. Once the lockplate was casehardened (as it would have been during the buyers final inspection) it would be very difficult to hand stamp a mark on the lock plate without a press of some sort.

As far as the double line engraving around the lock plate, my original Tower P-53s are not perfectly linear around the perimeter either.

[blue steel]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Long story short….a couple of years ago I was about to start the hobby. I went to a training with a unit and was very enthused. I had already compiled nearly all my gear from approved vendors and was in search of an Enfield. About one month after the meeting I was out riding on my grandfather’s farm. We took a tumble and I destroyed my left foot. The horse was fine (thank God). I went into a funk and depression. My girlfriend bought this w/o my knowledge as an attempt to try to end my year long depression.

While I can’t say it’s better than or worse than any others on the market, here are some pics.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=002.jpg

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=003.jpg

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http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=019.jpg

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=020.jpg

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=021.jpg

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=022.jpg

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http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/Scooby_308/?action=view&current=037.jpg

[Craig L Barry]

Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

If there is any interest in a dialog on this subject from another thread, we can continue it here.

As far as I can determine the practice of using rack numbers on Confederate imported arms varied. In researching original invoices from some of the first CS shipments of P-53 Enfields that ran the blockade aboard the Bermuda, landing in Savannah during Sept 1861 (which were issued to Georgia troops) those had rack numbers engraved in the tang. They were primarily Barnett and LAC. However, none of the few originals I have owned showed any rack numbers including a Swinburn & Son with fairly clear CS inspection marks, a piece of junk made by Barnett, an 1861 LA Co, a nice W. Sargant & Son, and a Charles Maybury. There are a variety of reasons for that.

The person I consider the most knowledgable about the US Civil War Enfield is a professional researcher and arms collector named William O. Adams. Bill assisted with wrote the foreward to The Civil War Musket, and contributed quite a bit to An Introduction to Civil War Small Arms by Coates & Thomas. Many of the CS Richmonds shown in CS Armory: A History of the Confederate States Armory, Richmond VA by Paul Davies are from Adams collection, and so on. Adams chided me once for writing that he had 200 P-53s, a fact he dismissed as an understatement. Most of us have never even seen 200 Enfields at one time much less owned and had them in hand to compare. He told me he actually has owned over a thousand. Anyway, the point is Adams has some in his collection that are marked with rack numbers, and many that are not. While a thousand is a drop in the bucket compared to the total number imported here during the early-to-mid 1860s, it is still a statistically significant sample for purposes of making some general statements about rack markings.

Geoff Walden offered the number as 10%. I don't know that the number is 10% or it is some other number or if that number could ever be conclusively determined. Like most of us, I am a student of the subject. According to the heavyweights, which Walden and Adams are, what can be said is the research available suggests that rack numbers were not used for the majority of P-53 rifle-muskets that ran the blockade during the US Civil War. If we are more specific, we can be more correct ie: you could say for Georgia troops issued Enfields that ran the blockade early in the war, rack numbers were common.

[Dan Munson]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Having recently completed my own Enfield de-farb project, I would like to offer a couple of observations, if I may.

Todd Watts is quite right that trying to grind/file down Baddely patent barrel bands to "look" like Palmers is at best a semi-satisfactory stop-gap until one can find correct bands. The Baddelys simply are not thick enough down in the screw-hole area to leave enough "tab" when you finish grinding. You can do it...but put it next to a real Palmer band and the differences will leap out and strangle you. I know this -- I did such a grinding project and, at this moment have two ground-down Baddelys and one correct Palmer (Armisport replacement part) on my re-worked EOA. But I now have in hand two more correct Palmer Bands (castings by The Rifle Shoppe - I gave up trying to get more Armisport parts) and just have to tap in the screw threads). In any case even if you grind down Baddely bands, you still have the wrong band screws.

Todd is also right -- as far as I can tell by comparing -- that Armisport Enfields make a better starting point for de-farbing than EOAs (if nothing else, you're already $60-$80 to the good just by not having to change the barrel bands). Also, my EOA did take quite a bit of wood work to get the stock down to somewhere nearer "right." I worked off a number of photos, including those in G. Walden's excellent article, so it's possible I still could have taken off a bit more in places than I did. (By the way, Walden's illustrations of stock cartouches made hand-tooling my own "L.A. Co." Cartouche a snap).

I do want to put in a good word for The Rifle Shoppe as a supplier of correct Enfield hammers and barrel bands. The re-curved hammer especially looks marvelous when compared to the straight-backed repro hammers. The bands also look pretty sweet. But a warning: TRS supplies castings, not finished parts. The parts come a dull grey and have to be buffed/polished. Also the parts come with some casting sprue and flashing which needs to be ground or filed off. It's easy enough if you have a few tools -- took me about an hour and half this past weekend to get the hammer and two bands into shape.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Craig: I for one agree with your assesment that rack numbers are on a small minority of the enfields used by the south. (By the way, I refer to them as inventory numbers because rack numbers usually refer to a smaller number than some of the engraved numbers out there.) I don't know what they are supposed to be called.

While not drawing on a large sample for my conclusions, I have been looking at enfields at shows for a number of years. Numbered butt plates are just plain scarce.

Several years back I dug 6, P-53s from a CS trench. None had any butt plate markings. Nor have several dug butt plates I have uncovered over the years.

Three CS ID enfields I own or have notes on do not have any butt plate markings.

If they were common I could afford one.

I also believe that more enfields are devoid of the BSAT stamp than have it. I am going out on a limb here but since the use of this stamp is becoming widespread for de-farbing perhaps we should include it in the discussion.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Good idea moving this to its own thread. I have looked at up to 10 (I can remember 6 for sure and am pretty sure there were 2-3 others) this year so far, and only 1 did I note mentally as different in that it did not have anything engraved or stamped on the buttplate's tang. But, in years past I noted that the engraved or stampred versions seemed uncommon compared to non-stamped tangs. I don't know if they really were a "rack number" or "inspection number" or "lot number" or what they were. I wonder if anyone really knows what these were. It would make sense to me that a buyer would want to number the ones he is buying and maintain some sort of record so as to prove he bought them and that they were inspected and deemed "good" for his later payment. Militarily, these numbers also would serve an inventory purpose it seems. When an arsenal rec'd arms, it would make sense to inventory the guns, match bayonets and rammers to them and who they were then issued to. Not every gun was so marked though, but as evidenced by the numbers of surviving examples it had to be common enough to allow so many examples to be left around.

Another real issue with these guns is probably next to none left are 100% intact as-issued. Parts got interchanged a lot I suspect. Now that's something new to yap about.;)

[Jimmayo]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

The P-53 was not the only model enfield that used the numbering system. See the link below for a P-56 Army that was stamped on the wood since the furniture was iron.

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os905p1.htm

Here is another example that Shannon Pritchard recently sold with matching ramrod and bayonet numbers.

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os565p1.htm

[Todd Watts]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Yes, I regularly see all sorts of numbers on all sorts of guns. I have an 1842 Belgian "Liege" I am working on right now that has some stamped numbers on the butt plate tang as well as on the stock itself. Who knows what these markings really are for, but I suspect it is correct to stamp numbers on guns of any sort. With literally tens of thousands of any gun we today would be using in use back then, there were bound to be all sorts of numbers on them that we today have no clue what they were used for. On this one for instance, it is my suspician that the numbers were already on it before it was imported for our CW use, if it was indeed imported and not brought over after the war's end. The stamps just seem to have more of a European design to me. It is the number "43" on the tang, on the left of the stock butt and on the lock saddle, all cock-eyed so they were obviously struck by hand in a rapid fashion by someone that had probably struck hundreds by the time it came along. It also has a small round stamp containg some sort of initials in 2 places on its right side of the butt, which I guessing was an inspector's mark.

Buyers of de-farbs also tend to want as many markings on their guns as possible. I no longer advertise the "JS anchor" on the Enfield lock plates, for example, yet still have had 2 customers request this even after I tell them that this placement is probably not correct enough to be used. Whatever floats your boat, it's your money. As for the number of BSAT roundel stock stamps, that may be correct that they are rarer than non BSAT-marked stocks, but we can't really say how many BSAT marks were in use back then. There were thousands of Enfields imported, and only a portion were BSAT stamped compared the entire import numbers. Still, there is no way all of the BSAT de-farb marks today come close to equalling the total number of BSAT marked Enfields back then - but I'm working on filling the order.;) By the way, yesterday I rec'd my E.Bond stamps so I can do that version now as well. That is one pretty roundel!

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Yes, you are correct in noting that...this is why I phrased this as "...Confederate imported arms" rather than "... CS imported Enfields". The practice, however common or uncommon was not limited to the P-53s, it is just that so many P-53s were imported that they tend to make up more of the examples of the rack or inventory numbering practice.

You are to be excused if you don't find all this as fascinating as I do. Interesting point on the commercial P-53 BSAT stock stamps, my C. Maybury Tower Enfield does not have that stamp and of course the Barnett being a London maker does not...the other two are marked with the Birmingham Small Arms Trade stock "roundel" as it is sometimes called. However, WW Greener Ltd commercial P-53s, while also produced in Birmingham are not going to be found with BSAT markings (this is probably one never about an Enfield you could be secure with). William Greener Ltd, was located in Birmingham but competed with and was not cooperative with the other gunmaking firms in the BSAT. The locks were also marked differently by Greener. On the other hand it is believed that the vast majority of the commercial P-53s produced by the so-called (by CH Roads) "Original Four" that included Tipping & Lawden, T Turner, Hollis & Sheath and Swinburn, were found marked with the BSAT roundel. Since these firms founded the original Birmingham Small Arms w/ some others, that makes sense.

Other Birmingham gunmakers varied on the practice of the BSAT (or other) stock stamp, for example Eyton Bond (not to be confused with London gunmaker EP Bond) had a unique stock stamp with the firm's address. The E. Bond oval cartouche is particularly eye catching. Ward & Sons used a larger than average circular maker’s mark that abbreviated “Birmingham” as “–BIRHM-.” C.W. James used a smaller roundel but spelled BIRMINGHAM out fully on the lower half circle (vs. the upper half circle on the BSAT roundel), obviously in smaller sized capital letters. Calisher & Terry did not use a stock mark. Oddly, the well known London gun-making firm of Potts & Hunt invested in a stock stamp that reads “Potts & Hunt Birmingham” for reasons that now appear to be lost to history. These examples are not intended to be an exhaustive study, but serve to demonstrate the broad variety of stock markings found on original specimens. Others, as Jim points out, were not found marked at all.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Blockade Runner Enfield Defarb

Yes, Geoff Walden makes that observation (someplace) about his mixed results grinding the Baddeley patent bands to resemble Palmer type, and I can also say that my experiments along those lines have been mixed. The consensus seems to be original Palmer bands are the best possible alternative, though fitting them on a repro may be an issue, followed at quite a distance by Armi Sport repro bands.

Some people prefer EOA for reasons of their own, in my previously published evaluations the original Birmingham made (not the newer Italian made) Parker-Hale was the "best" or "least worst" to begin with, if you could find one. Followed by the Armi Sport (Armi Chiappa), which is a better copy though not of a commercial P-53, but rather it appears to be a copy of the Parker Hale (?). It is lighter in weight and has better bands, though they are chemically case colored vs blued for some reason I have never understood. The earlier Armi-Sports were more like the Parker Hale then they are now. Then in last place, not as accurate in detail and more expensive is the Euroarms. Their P-53 is so grossly overweight it handles more like a boat anchor than a military arm.In 1993 Geoff Walden wrote in The Watchdog that he had discussed necessary accuracy modifications with Paulo Amali of Euroarms and the changes were in the works. That was 14 years ago...

In addition to the Rifle Shoppe, James River Armory also offers some more correctly proportioned hammers in a finished state for the current reproductions.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

[QUOTE= Others, as Jim points out, were not found marked at all.[/QUOTE]

Just to give us something to debate over 140+ years later. Weren't they thoughtful!?:D

I do find it interesting to know who stamped what and where, for the purpose of being able to offer the correct stampings on my work. I like these littel tidbits of info and debating because it helps me make adjustments to my work as time goes on.