The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[ACo.]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

...the number "43" on the tang, on the left of the stock butt and on the lock saddle, all cock-eyed so they were obviously struck by hand in a rapid fashion by someone that had probably struck hundreds by the time it came along. It also has a small round stamp containg some sort of initials in 2 places on its right side of the butt, which I guessing was an inspector's mark.
...

Very simple explanation. The number "43" is the gun's number within the batch that was being assembled at the armory. Such a marking is very common with non-interchangeable arms. And you may be correct about the "inspector's mark". Many European weapons, especially those imported from the German states, were regimentally marked and have no relation to their use in our Civil War. US and CS regimental markings are almost unheard of and I have always looked at markings on American weapons as being post military and until proven otherwise (by period documentation) I will continue to do so, the soldier was not allowed to cut or mark his stock in any way according to regulations, to deny that is to say that the regulations didn't exist or that the sergeants were not doing their jobs. Now, did such markings occasionally slide by without notice? Possibly, but to say it was common is just denying reality. Also, I have to agree with Jim as far as the number markings on the buttplate tang, they are extremely uncommon - downright RARE. I have seen two documentable examples in thirty-seven years of looking at Enfields. Sorry, that's just the way I see it.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

TP:
No need to apologize for conclusions reached after 37 years of studying what is for many of us the most fascinating military arm of the Civil War period. And you are correct on the individually numbered parts which was done for a distinctly different reason than the rack numbers. The M-54 Lorenz was one that often came part numbered with a corresponding numbered bayonet. There are also recollections by soldiers of "hammering" the bayonet onto the barrel of the Lorenz when issued unmatched.

It appears we are in agreement here, it is tough to put an actual figure or percentage on the total of rack or inventory numbered weapons unless you can be very specific to a time period and unit issuance, then research it back that way. We know two things (for sure) about that...there are many unmarked surviving examples and there are less than complete records which survive and can be matched to existing specimens.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Here are some snaps of a nice enfield. I could find no other markings except on one of the bands. The hammer is a repro. The carving is for Company B of the 9th Va. Inf. Kinda hard to make out as the 9 is backwards. I could not make out the name in the ramrod channel.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

And while we are on the subject of markings, take a look at these gauge marks:
One with the 24 is ID to the 38th Va.
The one with the 26 is a post war shortned.

Both are 61 towers.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

I wonder if there is a regional difference in the number of variatiosn we see? I certainly have seen a lot of Enfields with engraved or stamped number on the buttplate tangs, but it seems like some of you have only rarely seen them. I know with "modern" arms, there is a regional difference in prices and availability of many guns. As I said, I only saw 1 Enfield not engraved this year and can recall for certain 5 others that were engraved, and am pretty sure there were a couple others I looked at this year that were engraved/stamped.

The parts-interchanageabilty stampings are probably correct. The Enfields do seem to have a Roman numeral on parts and after having had 3 torn down to pieces on the same table I can understand why this was a good idea. On the Liege however, the 43 is not on anything except the stock and buttplate tang, and is on the stock twice. It doesn't seem to be to match parts, unless at one point or another other parts were replaced. But the lock and hammer do not have any markings like these.

The American Rifleman magazine about a year ago had a piece on a Enfield that is 100% certain to have been in Confederate use. It was a good article. The soldier had scratched his reg't and co. into the stock as well as his name "upside down" on the stock. It was explained in the article that it is only "upside down" unless the gun is seen standing in a stand of arms in which case it is "rightside up." This was certainly not done post-war when the gun never would have been seen in a stand of Enfields ever again.

I personally have not come across any copies of soldier manual from the period that state "do not mark your gun stock" and with the influx of mixed and matched doo-doo some of these poor fellows were handed, I don't really think there were a lot of regulations to keep those particular gun stocks "pretty." A brand new 1861 issued to a regular soldier, sure, but a used import foreign gun shoved ito the hands of pvt. Bob of the 3rd AK Comp H? The Sgt may well have been the first to name his own gun.:D

We see quite a few guns marked with names and reg'ts etc today. Were they all done after the war? Maybe some, but surely not all of them? If the guys took them home, they had no real purpose to name the gun, or scratch the reg't or company into it. The guys were going back to a hard living on the farm, or working factories and the gun was stuck into the closet or under a bed or left in the barn at that point. I am just trying to think like a soldier of the era here. Most of the guns back then are long since gone, sadly. There's no way to know how many survive today or even how many guns of which types actually were issued. But, mathematically, if 1000 Enfields survive today, and 100,000 were issued, then statistically a gun that has engraved numbers must represent about 100 of them originally, right? And if 10 guns survive today with a soldier's name in the stock, then it would represent roughly 1000 of them back then did - if my math skills are to be believed (which according to many math teachers over the years, they are not).

[Jimmayo]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

I wonder if there is a regional difference in the number of variatiosn we see? I certainly have seen a lot of Enfields with engraved or stamped number on the buttplate tangs, but it seems like some of you have only rarely seen them. I know with "modern" arms, there is a regional difference in prices and availability of many guns. As I said, I only saw 1 Enfield not engraved this year and can recall for certain 5 others that were engraved, and am pretty sure there were a couple others I looked at this year that were engraved/stamped.

Todd: Were the ones you looked at in collections? If they were, that would not be a good sample since most people have the best available in their collections.

The parts-interchanageabilty stampings are probably correct. The Enfields do seem to have a Roman numeral on parts and after having had 3 torn down to pieces on the same table I can understand why this was a good idea. On the Liege however, the 43 is not on anything except the stock and buttplate tang, and is on the stock twice. It doesn't seem to be to match parts, unless at one point or another other parts were replaced. But the lock and hammer do not have any markings like these..

All of the part markings to keep specific parts with specific guns that I have seen are roman numerals also. I have seen it on 1816s, and 42 model Springfield. I think it was SOP. I remember reading that the Enfields were fitted and assembled and then the stocks were removed and finished. It would have been necessary to mark the parts and stocks since most were hand fitted.

The American Rifleman magazine about a year ago had a piece on a Enfield that is 100% certain to have been in Confederate use. It was a good article. The soldier had scratched his reg't and co. into the stock as well as his name "upside down" on the stock. It was explained in the article that it is only "upside down" unless the gun is seen standing in a stand of arms in which case it is "rightside up." This was certainly not done post-war when the gun never would have been seen in a stand of Enfields ever again.

I agree. I have seen quite a few upside down.

We see quite a few guns marked with names and reg'ts etc today. Were they all done after the war? Maybe some, but surely not all of them?

A friend of mine has a letter from an officer in a Vermont regiment written from Suffolk. In his letter he states that he has spent all day marking the men's muskets and the next two days will be spent marking cartridge boxes and belts. Several months ago my friend spotted an Enfield at an on line dealer with the regimental markings exactly as described in the letter. He bought it of course. Bottom line is that it was marked at an official level.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

I am going to have to check my notes, but I think the M-1854 Lorenz was marked in block numbers on the parts, as in a "1" w/ a "5" next to it. The P-53 gauge mark "24" was fairly common as it corresponds to .58, and I have seen "26" but rarely, only a few. You must have an interesting collection there Jim.

The collectors are now saying that the bottom has fallen out of the P-53 Enfield in terms of prices with all the middle eastern stuff coming back here. We have ourselves seen several postings here with fellows buying reasonably priced Enfields in good condition. Not too many rack numbered though, out there in the Khyber Pass.

[rogue]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

This maybe late, and somewhat off subject, but digging into the pile I found an English made sea-service musket I have (lock marked TOWER-PROOF) and undated, that has a number 3 on the top of the butt plate. Is this the type of engraved rack number being discussed here?
Steve Sullivan

[1stMaine]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Comrades,

In an earlier thread this year, I remarked about Enfield rifle-muskets purchased by the State of Massachussets. I off the following exceprt from my comments:

In fact, the English accoutrements were part of a contract for 10,000 sets and some "20,800 long Enfield rifles" negotiated by Francis B. Crowninsheild, who was acting as agent for Governor John Andrew and his council.

For what it's worth, the Enfield rifle-muskets came partially from the Burmingham makers, and also from the London Armoury company as well as the firm of Barnett, Potts, & Hunt, also of London. Despite encroachments by Schuyler (of Schuyler, Hertley & Graham, NY) and Confederate agents, Crowninsheild still was able to send an initial issue of P-1853 models to Massachusetts in 1861 of 14,700 weapons. The rest followed shrtly thereafter.

The 2, 7, 10, 12, 13, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 25 & 27 regiments all drew arms from this intial contract in 1861. The 24th also drew Enfields, but returned all but 3 as unsuitable and exchanged them for M1861 Springfields.

Enfield rifle-muskets purchased by the state were considered to be state property and, as such, were marked on the butt plate with a rack/issue number, and an abbreviated reginental number and company letter. Excavated remains of these weapons, as well as extant examples bear out this stamping.

Emphasis by me. I cannot post scans at the present time of the images I have of these stampings. My scanner is hard down, and I cannot seem to get a useable image with my camera. When circumstances permit me to replace th scanner, I'll be happy to upload scanned images to this thread.

Respects,

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Hallo!

"Probability" is a strange beast to tame... ;) :)

Having essentially two sides, a penny has a 50/50 "probability" of landing a "head" or a "tail."
However, one can toss a penny ten times and come up with 10 out of 10 heads, or 10 out of 10 tails.

Of the roughly 50 P1853's I have owned and/or been able to view or examine, I would say I recall three, maybe four, with tang markings (stampings or engravings).
But, I would not say that based upon my limited sample pool, that only three or four Enfields out of fifty some were tang marked- just that of the roughly 50 or so P1853's I have owned and/or been able to view or examine three or four of THOSE were marked.
The next 50 or so may be all marked.
(Doubt it though, but that is just a bias..)

Others' mileage, and experience with marked tangs, will vary...

Curt

[Jimmayo]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

This maybe late, and somewhat off subject, but digging into the pile I found an English made sea-service musket I have (lock marked TOWER-PROOF) and undated, that has a number 3 on the top of the butt plate. Is this the type of engraved rack number being discussed here?
Steve Sullivan

That number looks to me to be engraved the same way as the ones we have been discussing. Any other marks on the stock?

Is that the dog from MIB II? Can he talk?

[rogue]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Jim,
No this is Loki, not Frank. He loves rubbing against jean cloth and urinating on my copies of the ORs. My son's dog.
The Enfield pictured was found in a North Carolina sporting goods store some years ago by a former student of mine. A very large caliber smoothbore with a replacement (later period) ramrod.
There is a stamped something on the stock opposite the lock, but it is unreadable.
Steve Sullivan

[jhodnett]

Re: James River

I just recieved my Enfield from James River and am very pleased with it.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

Probably the name or mark of the fellow who did the lock mortise, if it is a British government gun.

[prestontoprail]

Re: James River Armory - Defarbed Enfields

Jeff, is there anyway you could post some pictures of the enfield? Or perhaps a list of fixes that you have noticed?