The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[csuniforms]

Re: Reproduction Muskets-Hoyt Re-lines

I shoot with N-SSA and the whitcare barrels are good, but they are made more for accuracy and not authenticity. Just as Bob Hoyt manufactures and re-line barrels. Nobody is making EXACT reproductions of barrels. As I understand it they are shaped differently than euro or armi barrels to compensate for there competition, (progressive) rifling. As a previous owner of a Pedersoli Musket, They are NOT de-farbed.. and still have modern markings. The 42 comes semi-de-farbed out of the box..but, that is a smoothbore and may not be correct for your impression....

I am 99% sure you can have the old style rifling done in your Springfield barrel, and no, original barrels and new barrels made by Hoyt and Whittacre are made to fit original Civil War era wooden stocks and WILL NOT fit in an Italian Repro--

I still say buy an original musket for reenacting-- your paying $700 or more with defarbing and it is possible to find original firearms in that price range-- not new but useable--

Tom Arliskas
CSuniforms

[Clsinclair]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

I don't have my Enfield book in front of me but it seems that the repo barrels are about a pound heavier than the originals. That's a lot of metal to shave. I have an original Enfield in excellent condition with a strong bore and rifling but the metal is thinner than the repo. BTW - It cost me $1,200 from "The Horse Soldier" but it is defarbed.

Regards,
Claude Sinclair

[Todd Watts]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Daniel Whitaker of Whitaker's Machine Shop in VA makes progressive rifling repros. He can contour them to fit the barrel channel of the stock you have and the breach plug you have. A problem is that if you have an Armi or Euro, the barrel channel is already carved for their barrel contour. You can drop a new barrel with original dimensiosn into it, but the fit is very loose. Armis are closer to original contours than that boat anchor club of the Euroarms. The best as far as contours are the old Parke hales although finding one is hard to do. Pedersolli doesn't make their own guns, and I think they are made by Euroarms but can't swear to that off-hand. Uberti was offering some of these guns but I have never got my hands on any to see the dimensions. Dixie Gun Works imports some Japanese-made repros that are reasonably close to the right contours, but they have poor wood to metal fit which opens a whole new set of issues to deal with. A gunsmith can build you a perfect copy from the ground up, but the gun is going to cost you around $1200+. Personally, I wouldn't build one like that for less than $2000 because it would cost me a lot in new dies and machining parts that would only get limited use later. When a decent repros like and Armi can be had for $400-$500 and another $200 can have it de-farbed close enough that only experienced experts would notice the subtle differences, it just isn't worth going to the trouble of building one from scratch unless you have a burr up your butt to spend the money.

Why are the barrels so hefty? Essentially, liability. Modern owners are apt to sue if a barrel blows apart in their hands because they overloaded it. Originals and Parker Hale barrels are a joy to carry and shoulder compared to an Armi or Euro. However, some putz is bound to double charge one with a thickly patched ball someday and the Armi and Euro will hold where the Parker Hale or original-contoured ones might not. A good buddy of mine bought an Armi Richmond a few year back and was playing with it, uping the charges to see what it could do over a chronograph. He got a wierd reading on one shot that he said felt strange. When he tried loading the next Minie into it, the slug stopped solid about 3/4 the way down. We had to pull the slug and clean it and still couldn't get another slug down. I pulled the breach and we found a skirt fused fast about 4" from the breach. I had to heat and chip it out. I later learned he "thought" that charge was 120 grs of "P" Pyrodex, roughly the same pressure that 155 grs of FFFg would have given him. The barrel, however, contained it even though the Minie could not.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Thanks guys.

I was aware that the repo barrels are way too heavy.

I was also under the impression from the websites that the competiton shooting barrels are exactly that, barrels modified specifically for competiton shooting and not better reproductions of the originals.

If somebody can categorically state otherwise, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Hallo!

Hmmmmm. My last reply disappeared. (May be I screwed up or it will appear later).

"I was also under the impression from the websites that the competiton shooting barrels are exactly that, barrels modified specifically for competiton shooting and not better reproductions of the originals."

Yes and no.
My friend of 30 years, Steve Jencso, used to offer repro original replacement stocks and barrels.
He would make say a M1855 or M1861 or M1863 barrel that matched the dimensions and profile of the originals- but EITHER with the Period three broad groove standard depth rifling, same twist- OR 6, 7, or 8 deep multi groove, progressive depth rifling, faster twists for the competitors that wanted them for the type bullet they were competing with.
Etc., etc.

Curt

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

I was under the impression that many arms of the period were progressively rifled... Specifically Enfields. Is this not correct???

[fahtz]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

One musket manufacture not mentioned is Navy Arms.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Hallo!

Yes... Original Enfields were progressive depth rifled, as were the "original"
(late 1970's) Parker-Hale's.

Navy Arms is an "importer" of generally Italian reproductions, rather than a "manufacturer." The Italian industry makes them, and surcharges the barrels with the "Navy Arms" info.
(Another example is Dixie Gun Works. "Uberti" will say, make a firearm line and surcharge them for the importer Dixe."

Curt

[fahtz]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Thanks Curt. I had no idea they were importing. Just like the springfield XD I carry, not many american arms are made in america I guess!!!! :)

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

A couple things:

First, there are presently no known reproduction barrels correctly proportioned and identical in weight to an original P-53 Enfield or US model 1861. The Armi Sport US 1842 is "close" and the old made in Birmingham Parker-Hale .577 repro P-53 barrel is also "close" (at least to an RSAF P-53).

Also, the D. Pedersoli US 1861 is reviewed in The Civil War Musket. Guess what? It is made from Euroarms parts and is identical to their own US 1861, except for final finishing by D Pedersoli. It is not identical to the original is shape, weight or anything else although most of the Euroarms lock parts will interchange with an original US 1861. This is like the "Italian made" Parker-Hales. They are not what they seem to be.

Curt is correct (as usual), Navy Arms does not "manufacture" the guns they sell. The early 70s Navy Arms were from Miroku, and now they are mostly all Euroarms. Same with Dixie Gun Works.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Navy Arms does not "manufacture" the guns they sell......... and now they are mostly all Euroarms. Same with Dixie Gun Works.

Craig, I hate to disagree with such aknowledgeable fellow such as yourself, but Dixie Gun Works sells Enfields made by everyone: they have Armi-Sport, Euro Arms, Parker-Hales. They carry other mfg's as well for other models. (e.g. Sharps by Pedersoli and IAB) Along with many original parts and repro parts for numerous other rifles and other shooting accessories. I just hate paying their prices. Taylor's is the same way. They sell mostly Armi sport weapons.

I have a question concerning this topic. Does anyone know whether the Colt '61 Springfield repros made a few years ago how accurately they were made? Did Colt actually make those or were they contracted out to someone else? Would the Colt need to be de-farbed or is is good right out of the box?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Yes you are right, that was an over-generalization. Dixie Gun Works does sell Armi Sport and D.Pedersoli however the "majority" of their muskets are from Euroarms, including all the new US 1861, 1863 and P-53 kits they offer. Navy Arms is mostly Euroarms and D Pedersoli. Point being of course, neither of them "manufacture" anything and the majority of the Civil War repro muskets are coming from Italy including the Parker-Hales. The Parker-Hales serial number 15000 and up (after the mid-1990s) are being made in Italy by a division of Euroarms and bear little resemblance to the original UK (Birmingham) produced version. They are not that much different except in very minor detail from the Euroarms P-53 Enfield and pale in comparison to the Birmingham made Parker Hale of the 1970s. I was fortunate to recently pick up a 70s vintage P-53 Parker-Hale, serial number 2802, in almost out of the box condition, except for a few minor scratches and bumps from moving/handling over the years. Apparently it was sitting in somebody's closet unfired for decades, like a time capsule. Anyway it is vastly superior to any of the Italian Enfields. An original LACo lock assembly dated 1861 from my collection drops right into the lock mortise and fits it like a glove. It feels like an original in your hands instead of a boat anchor. I have owned and used a couple of the UK Parker Hales in years past, but never one this pristine. I paid $500 for this one, an amount I consider ridiculously low given the quality and condition of the piece. If you can find a Birmingham made Parker-Hale P-53, my recommendation would be to buy it. It offers the greatest potential for a good Civil War Enfield after de-farbing.

The Colt Special Model 1861 repros you are inquiring about are assembled in the US from parts made in Italy. This is also covered in the "The Civil War Musket". You will find that after pulling the lock, the internal parts all interchange with Armi Sport, but not with an original Colt Special Model. The sellers were evasive about the distinction between "assembled in the USA" and "made in the USA". The giveaway on the Colt is found when you take a close look at the Armi Sport (Armi Chiappa) US 1863 "Springfield" in the A-C catalog you will immediately note the similarities between it and the "Colt Special Model". I happened to have both on hand at the time. It is identical except for a few stamping details. The gun stock in particular is not the US Model type, but rather follows the contours of the Special Model, and so on. The Colt Special Model repros are available on gunbroker.com starting at $899, for which you are essentially getting an Armi Sport US Model 1863 with "Colt" stamped on it. By the way, Taylors & Co (last time I checked) does not import the Armi Sport US Model 1863.

As far as de-farbing the Colt Special Model reproduction, the first thing would be changing the date on the lock from 1861 to 1862 or later (the first Special Models were not delivered until August 1862), refinishing the stock with boiled linseed oil and filing off the farby "Samuel Colt" autograph on the trigger guard. Not too bad, but there are much better choices for less money.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Craig,
thanks for the info about the Colt Special Model 1861 and the PHs. I didn't know that about the serial numbers. I don't own a Colt repro. I've always wanted to but the cost is has prohibited owning one. Now I don't know. I do own one of DGW's 63 springfields by Miruko. That has been my old faithful since starting reenacting in mid eighties. Unfortunately I really farbed it up back then by having it chromed and brushed for ease of maintenance and looks. I've wisened up a bit since then! Now I don't know what to do with it in this condition. Very Shiny but not authentic........BTW Great buy on the PH for $500.

I'm currently over here in Bagram, Afghanistan and have shipped a '56 Tower type II to Lodgewood where it is currently getting a new stock. I hope to have it and use it at Sep Storm. The original stock was very worn down, so much so the bands were loose and 1 retaining spring didn't "retain" the band. Under the trigger guard tang where the stock is inletted for the trigger guard, it is stamped "J SWIFT POOL" . I was told the he was either the Stock maker or assembler. the ram rod channel was also made for the windsor type ramrod with the swell near the jag head.

I also bought a P60 short rifle here also. The lock is stamped "1860 Enfield" with all steel furniture(butplate, nose cap, triggerguard) Only the small eyelet for the nipple protector and chain attachment is missing. Unfortuneately both rifles are no longer rifled and both were formerly in the service of the Queen. They appear to have been bored to shotguns. I'll probably have the P60's original barrel lined to return it to shooting condition. I'm still straddling the fence about re-bluing it.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

I am having to do this a lot in this thread...let me re-phrase that. An original P-53 Enfield rebuilt with original and reproduction parts offers the greatest potential for a good Civil War Enfield. Any reproduction is not going to be the same or as good. You are doing what we call a "put together", both Wick and I have P-53 Enfields like this.

Take care in the Middle East and stop by The Watchdog tent at Boonsboro (Sept Storm) to say hello. Bill Osbourne (Lodgewood) will know what to and he has a large inventory of parts. Sounds like this is a type II, hardband w/ band springs? I want to hear about the outcome of your rebuilt "put together" project.

As far as your repro Dixie/Miroku US 1863, you could post it for sale here and a dozen guys would jump on it, despite it needing refinishing. The Mirokus, while slightly (and oddly) off in that Japanese way, are very popular now among the "Get It Right" crowd because the overall proportions and weight are pretty close to an original. Actually it is not that hard to reproduce "armory bright" from chrome bright. I would give it a dose of something like Birchwood-Casey blue remover (an acid) which will dull it right up, wash that off with steel wool and then start again. You could probably send our resident firearms expert Curt Heinrich Schmidt a private message as he may know of a better method for restoring the correct finish. His hands on knowledge exceeds mine, but what I've suggested will work.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Reproduction Muskets

Craig,
Will do, I'll stop by and say "Howdy!". I dont want to miss this event. I'll be home on R&R and our unit has over 100 registered. That and the fact that for once the US will out number the CS. This was done by limiting the CS Registration. 800 CS and 1200 US is the goal.I know the CS has been reached and was pretty close on the US. I'll also be participating in the AP Hill preservation march. Harpers Ferry to Sharpsburg on Thursday and Friday.
The '56 is getting the stock and ramrod replaced. The rammer wasn't correct but will be, it should turn out nice. While it may be considered a "bitser" as some would say it, it will serve the purpose quite well. It was all original except for the ramrod when I bought it. It does has solid bands with retaining springs. These were bought by both Union and Confederate armies as this was a 2nd rate weapon by the Brits at this time.
The '63 Springfield was brushed by a wire wheel after chroming looks like armory finish. and still looks pretty darn good after 20 plus years of service. While I was in HI my brother in law used my gear. I got him hooked into the hobby and had to feed his habit.