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The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

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  • Re: Too Many Enfields?

    Tim:

    Great point and as stated, an over-generalization by me. My thought there could have been made clearer as it wasn't only the specific usage of US 1841s by those Maine units. Though it is interesting to me that twenty years after their introduction, these fine rifles were still far from obsolete. Rather, what I was trying to get at there was that in the context of "other than three-band muskets/rifle-muskets", two-banders like the US 1841s were in fairly wide use even late in the war. IE: The Heavy Artillery units called to back up the infantry in 1864, though obviously not all of the units.

    The broader point of the thread is most important. The lack of well made, correctly prorportioned and historically accurate reproduction firearms is a particularly grating aspect of the hobby, and lags behind the progress made in other areas like uniforms and accoutrements. And by association the repro Enfield is over-represented and it is not a panacea for every impression. It would be great if we could move past the "I can only afford one gun, so I got an Enfield" perspective. There are better ways to approach the purchasing decision of this major expense item, including the realization that one particular firearm may not meet the requirements of every scenario, and an Enfield may not be a good choice.

    When other aspects of 1860s material culture are over-represented in the hobby, the reaction of the progressive segment is normally toward "balance" as in the recent discussions on canteen covers. I like what Justin Runyon recently posted on that thread "To expand, the argument that I generally hear is that blue covers are merely over represented among the mainstream of the hobby. Hence you see many on our side of things eschew blue covers to balance things out."

    It would be great if "those on our side of things" took that same approach w/ respect to the over-represented P-53 Enfield.
    Last edited by Craig L Barry; 08-14-2007, 02:06 PM.
    Craig L Barry
    Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
    Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
    Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
    Member, Company of Military Historians

    Comment


    • Re: Too Many Enfields?

      Hallo!

      "It would be great if "those on our side of things" took that same approach w/ respect to the over-represented P-53 Enfield."

      I almost said:

      It would be great if "those on their side of things" took that same approach w/ respect to the over-represented P-53 Enfield 4th Model.

      But didn't. (just back from five miles around the lake in the heat and humidity and not thinking...) ;) :)

      Seriously, I drift back and forth. Do we "really' need a four gun "golf bag" of say M822 percussion conversion, U.S. M1842, U.S. M1861 Springfield, or British P1853 3rd Model Enfield to be "representatively effective?'
      Or would one say $1500-2000 correct custom built gun or an original one fully "restored to CW appearance" be the truely "Hardcore/Authentic" Segment way to go? Or if so, what gun then??
      Or has the tail evolved to wag the dog? (I think it has...)

      Curt
      Curt Schmidt
      In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

      -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
      -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
      -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
      -Vastly Ignorant
      -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

      Comment


      • Re: Too Many Enfields?

        Herr Kammeraden:

        Good dialog here. A golf bag for all the muskets, I like that analogy. That would work for me. Like most things in the hobby, the level of commitment is variable, even among this segment. We may like to think otherwise. At the risk of over-generalizing on the material culture aspect, if one choses to "Get It Right" the correct choices depend on the known equipment of the unit being portrayed. The baseline should be "what was originally used by the soldiers in that unit" to the extent that is possible. This is the accepted standard in other aspects of the CPH impression. The necessary information is available with a minimum of research. If it is more than one model of rifle or musket and none of them were an Enfield, well...at least pick one of the historically correct models.

        One of my favorite ironies with the "out of the box" reproduction Enfield, is that (as you state) being copies of the RSAF fourth type (*) they have no known US Civil War provenance. You coined a term that fit so well, I think it was in the chapter you wrote in the CRRC..was it retro-verting? In other words, back dating the repro to the correct third type commercial P-53.

        It is not the tail wagging the dog to acknowledge that there are Too Many Enfields in use. There are and it is fairly easy to address, ie: don't buy one unless it fits your impression.


        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        (*) Actually the Italians copied not an original P-53, but the reproduction RSAF P-53 fourth type Parker-Hale that was produced in Birmingham, even copying the mistakes like the offset top swivel. Now there's another good reason to pick something other than a reproduction of the wrong reproduction.
        Last edited by Craig L Barry; 08-14-2007, 04:19 PM.
        Craig L Barry
        Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
        Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
        Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
        Member, Company of Military Historians

        Comment


        • Re: Too Many Enfields?

          Hallo!

          An excellent point on the Italians kinda/sorta "copying" the Parker-Hale RSAF repro of the mid '70's- I haven't seen that posted in quite some time!

          Geben Sie mir bitte ein.... von Dreyse "Needle Gun" (Zündnadelgewehr)

          If the unit, time, and place of my Impression du Jour had them, we would have used them.
          Just kidding! ;) :)

          Curt
          Ripe de Bois Mess

          Who is adding one U.S. M1841 Rifle to the Hobby by selling an 1855 Harpers Ferry conversion to M1855 Rifle long range rear sight and 1854 short front band.
          Last edited by Curt Schmidt; 08-14-2007, 06:03 PM.
          Curt Schmidt
          In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

          -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
          -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
          -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
          -Vastly Ignorant
          -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

          Comment


          • Re: Too Many Enfields?

            All that said, of course I do have a couple P-53s in my closet. Obviously, me and Wick, who started this thread and has one of the most historically accurate and beautifully crafted P-53 "put togethers" I have ever seen, should use our Enfields. Todd Watts, too since the unit we portray was issued P-53s. However, the rest of you boys need to go ahead and get something else in the interest of "balance". Fair enough?

            Ironically, beside both having P-53 "put togethers", Wick and I also have the exact same early war smoothbore musket, the D. Pedersoli repro US 1816 cone-in-drum conversion. Now what are the odds of that?
            Craig L Barry
            Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
            Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
            Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
            Member, Company of Military Historians

            Comment


            • Re: Too Many Enfields?

              Craig,

              Oh, things can get really interesting if you truly want to go with the unit/time specific portrayal stuff. I'm not picking here, just making an observation. I refer to the 3rd Maine infantry a lot, because I have a huge amount of data on it. Eventually, I'll finish their regimental history, but for now, there's only one chapter and some sections completed. More or less...

              But I digress. The 3rd Maine went off to war carrying those same M1816 w/Belgian conversions that you and wick have. Around December, the 4 flank companies were given .54 Belgian rifles. These were roundly retested by the men. Shrtly thereafter, these .54 Belgians were taken back, and the entire regiment was issued with either M1855 or M1861 rifle-muskets. These they carried until the end of their enlistment.

              The 4th Maine also had state-issued conversions of the M1816 muskets, and when the 3rd was given the new-issue Springfields, the 4th got the .54 Belgian rifles, which they also carried until muster out.

              The 7th Maine carried the Windsor pattern M1841 throughout it's enlistment, and when 5 companies of the reenlisted men, along with the reenlisted men of the 5th & 6th Maine were formed into the 1st Maine Veteran Volunteers in July, 1864, they were all issued with newly-made Springfields. My supposition is that these were M1863 patterns based upon period references as to the rifle-muslets being "brand new".

              The 20th Maine left the State with Enfield rifles, but detested them. After their engagement at Little Round Top, the 20th "lost" their enfields and replaced them with Springfield rifle-muskets salvaged from the ground(s) around them.

              So, depending upon the unit & time frame, one may as well end up with a "golf bag" of long arms... sigh..... I need another source of income. :D

              Respects,
              Tim Kindred
              Medical Mess
              Solar Star Lodge #14
              Bath, Maine

              Comment


              • Re: Too Many Enfields?

                Tim

                Sadly, I just found out via private message that Wick and I do not both have the same US 1816, his is a Belgian conversion...and mine is the Colt style "cone in drum". Still quite a coincidence.

                Yes! The 20th Maine 1863 diary excerpt from William Livermore..."July 4th. Weather cloudy. We went out and picked up Springfields and left our Enfields. Nearly everyone did so." You know, we don't see all that much of this particular form of historical interpretation going on these days do we...Civil War enactors discarding their Enfields and picking up Springfields or anything else for that matter? Reinforces the point of the thread in a way. There is a strong and deep seated interest with the P-53 Enfield w/in the hobby, some (self included) would say to the point of obvious over-representation. And it is not the initial slight cost advantage. It is very well known that the P-53 repro "out of the box" isn't very good and will require a couple hundred dollars in accuracy modifications to be passable.

                So why is that? What is there about the P-53 in particular that inspires this strong preference, even among a group of enthusiasts who really should (and probably do) know better? I have some theories...
                Last edited by Craig L Barry; 08-15-2007, 07:43 AM. Reason: typo
                Craig L Barry
                Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                Member, Company of Military Historians

                Comment


                • Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

                  I own two 53 enfields, a 61 tower with "rack" numbers on buttplate and a 63 marked E Bond in oval on stock with an anchor with an s over it on the top of the stock just in front of the butt plate. The Bond musket also has the initials js very small on the lock plate. Does any one know what the anchor s and the js stand for?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rack Numbers Engraved on the P-53 Enfield

                    I read someplace (and it may have been from Mr. Barry) that it is believed that the "JS" was the initials of "James Smiles" or something similar who was a London Armory inspector, contracted by a State in the South to inspect and purchase arms. His JS anchor stamp is seen on Enfields as well as on some European revolvers. But, it is probably impossible to know for sure that this was the guy. We have put that "conjecturism" onto the de-farb page at The Blockade Runner's site just to give a bit more trivia for potential customers. On the S and anchor stamp, I hear from Mr. Prince that there is a new book in the works that has more info on this stamp which is considered an even more rare Confederate contract stamp. I am now reproducing the E.Bond with the S anchor stamp that Mr. Prince recently had posession of. I like the E.Bond stamp best of all of mine. It is a pretty mark.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

                      Educated guess would be...I C = Isaac Curtis.
                      Craig L Barry
                      Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                      Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                      Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                      Member, Company of Military Historians

                      Comment


                      • Re: Enfield Lockplate Question

                        Originally posted by Jim Mayo View Post
                        My guess would be Inspected Condemned and then sold for export. Of course that is just a guess.
                        When British government arms were unfit for service and sold into the public market, a new broard arrow was stamped opposite the exsisting one to make a mark like this -><-
                        hope this is of help.

                        Just found this in arms & equipment of the British army, 1866

                        "Rifle muskets made at the Royal Small Arms Factory are distinguished by the word [I]Enfield[I] engraved on the lock-plate, and have their corresponding parts exactly identical in size and interchangeable.
                        Those made on the same principle by the London Armory Company have L.A.C on the lock-plate.
                        Rifle muskets manufactured by contract have the word TOWER on the lock-plate.
                        All rifles belonging to the government are marked with a crown and the letters V.R., besides a small crown and broad arrow on the lock-plate and barrel."
                        John Laking
                        18th Mo.VI (UK)
                        Scallawag mess

                        Comment


                        • Anyone have pics of JRA Enfields they can share?

                          Hi folks,

                          I would love to see some pics of James River's defarbed Enfields. Using the search function, I did find pics of a Barnett. Id like to see their Tower lockplate and any of the contractor lockplates.

                          Thanks in advance to anyone willing to share their pics with me.

                          Mike
                          [B]Mike Wilkins[/B]

                          Comment


                          • Re: Anyone have pics of JRA Enfields they can share?

                            Mike,

                            I was reluctant to post this photo because it is not a stock JRA. While it is a JRA degarbed Armisport, I have refinished the stock, replaced the hammer and trigger with originals. It will give you an idea of the London lock plate markings however, which is what it sounds like you are seeking. The lock plate compares quite favorably with an original Potts & Hunt in my collection. Hope this is helpful.

                            Sincerely,

                            C.J. Roberts
                            Attached Files
                            C.J. Roberts

                            Comment


                            • Re: Anyone have pics of JRA Enfields they can share?

                              thanks! Im mainly interested in seeing the different lockplates they offer. The Potts & Hunt stamp looks really good. I think I like it better than the Barnett I saw. The Barnett didnt match the script Ive seen on originals, though I know there are variations.

                              Was it difficult swaping the repro hammer out for the original?
                              [B]Mike Wilkins[/B]

                              Comment


                              • Re: Anyone have pics of JRA Enfields they can share?

                                I got very lucky. The orignal hammer, which by the way did not come close to fiting on my Euroarms Enfield, fit just fine. As you may be able to see in the photo, the hammer does not strike the nipple exactly on center, but it is very close and functions just fine. The original trigger was surprisly easy to install. As you know, it's always a gamble when installing original Enfield parts.

                                C.J. Roberts
                                C.J. Roberts

                                Comment

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