Using a Spencer for reenacting???

[Bob Taylor]

I saw this article about using a Spencer for reenacting a wile ago and am tempted to try it. http://www.9thnycavalry.webeditor.co...r_article.html But I was wondering if anyone besides the author of the article has followed his example and if so how is it working out for you?
Bob

[Civilwardude22]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???



Hallo!

This post was edited for content that spoke about the author and not the question.
The comments were better suited to PM or e-mail.

Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Hallo!

Are you asking about the use of M1865 Spencer carbines which started being shipped
(327) on April 3 1865 for "Civil War" living history purposes?
Or the use of calibers such as ..44 WCF, .44 S & W Russian, or .45 Schofield other than
.56-56 or .56.-50?.
Or the use of modern .410 shotgun shells for "blanks?"

Or just having fun with a Spencer?

Others' mileage, and choice of the M1865 Spencer carbine and ammo, will vary...

Curt

[Bob Taylor]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Curt
Perhaps I didn’t explain my question as well as I thought. I wasn’t concerned with what caliber was available in the1860s. I was just interested in weather or not this idea of using a 44-40 with cut down 410 shells works as well as the author says it does. I know that the repro Spencers are actually copies of the 1865 version but I also know that this factor in the repros is difficult to determine without extremely close inspection and a fair bit of historical knowledge.
Bob

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Hallo!

Thanks for the clarification.

History aside...

No, I have not yet seen anyone using modified .410 shotgun shell bases blanks yet,
or posting, other than the author.

But I would add, that IMHO it takes a little "lead time" to be cost-effective and time-effective for making the .410 blanks to be easy and practical as they do not pop in and out without some machinery and tools such as a .410 shotgun reloader, .410 shell conditioner, sizing dies, case trimmer, etc., to modify the .410 brass to a .44 WCF (.44-40 chambering).

Curt
Spencer Riflist Mess

[Bob Taylor]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Curt
You are right. According to the article there are several tools to buy to make the blanks. But he seams to have it all figured out. I did some preliminary investigations and it looks like $500 to $600 to buy all the tools new. I think some could be shaved of it if used tools could be found or several members of the same unit could share. I have been cruising the gun shows but haven’s seen much yet. But I am not ready to buy yet and would still like to know how well it works from more than one source.
You signed your post “Spencer Riflist Mess” Do you belong to a unit that uses Spencers? If so what do you use for blanks?
Thanks for your input.
Bob

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Hallo!

That would be Company "C," 7th Ohio Independent Company of Volunteer Sharpshooters, but that is "living history" and live-fire.
Although I do have a bag of 200 plastic blanks somewhere I have never used.

I was, once, going to buy or have made a "Spencer blank crimper" for the reloading station- but the process, IMHO is inherently dangerous as the "star" pattern or little fingers of brass slit and crimped to close the blank can break off and become a small projectile...)

(A "problem" with Spencers is cartridge related, the .52 Spencer .56-56 or later .56-50 copper, balloon-head design, rimfire is obsolete and no longer made. At first, lads were modifying the breech blocks to go center-fire, and then modifying .50-70 brass. Now there is a company or two making "Spencer brass." Which is a similar problem for the .44 Henry Rimfire used in the M1860 Henry and M1866 Improved Henry. The repro Henry and Improved Henry went to typically .44 WCF (.44-40) or .45 Long Colt [a calibre originals were not chambered for as they do not always cycle well, and the straight cartridge allows more black-powder fouling blow-back.])

Curt

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

When I purchased mine, I was thinking 1863. Is that incorrect? This being but one of the works of research that led me to a mid-63' date:

<"Spencer's Repeaters in the Civil War

By Tony Beck
Part 2 - In the Field
Part One presented the rather considerable obstacles faced by the Spencer Rifle Company in getting orders and starting production. This is only part of the story. The new repeater's field service deserves a look as well. There were other repeaters in use by mid 1863, notably Colt's revolving rifle and Henry's magazine rifle. The latter began the long line of lever action Winchesters that continues to this day. However, Spencer's weapons were the first repeaters to see action in significant numbers. They were specifically designed to meet the needs of the military. The Henry gun was a sporting arm. It fired an under powered 44 caliber round and was really too delicate for use in the field. The Colt was designed as a military rifle, but it was e xcessively difficult to load, especially in battle. Spencer's design solved the problems of these other repeaters. When the Boston repeaters were issued, troops lucky enough to get them were unreserved in their praise. Of the few complaints only one was well justified. It was that they were heavy, especially the rifles. After the first battle, however, this comment was seldom heard again.

The first recorded use of a Spencer repeater in combat is by Sergeant Francis Lombard of the 1st Mass. Cavalry. The occasion was a skirmish near Cumberland, Maryland on October 16th of 1862, just after the great battle at Sharpsburg, Md. He was carrying a prototype given to him by Christopher Spencer, although the record is sketchy on the exact type. Unfortunately, Lombard was killed at New Hope Church, outside of Richmond Va., in November of 1863. The details of his repeater and its use are now lost to history. (1)

It is safe to assume that Lombard's was not the only pre-production Spencer to have seen combat. It definitely was not the only one in the field. Colonel T. E. Chickering, of the 41st Mass. and almost certainly of the family that owned Spencer's armory, wrote the company on January 13, 1863 from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. He claimed that his Spencer carbine had out shot the unit's pickets in an impromptu target match. Supposedly, the guards were armed with muskets. (2) Production Spencer carbines were not to be delivered for another ten months.

It is difficult to pinpoint just when the first government purchased Spencers arrived in the field. Ordinance Department records show that the initial delivery on the Army contract took place on the last day of December, 1862. This preceded the Navy's initial delivery on February 3rd, 1863, even though the Navy order was earlier by several months. Both of these dates are almost certainly later than the actual deliveries. The services did not consider an item delivered until the certificates of inspection and acceptance were processed through the Ordinance Department in Washington. This took an unknown, but rather long time. Dated unit returns exist showing Spencer serial numbers in the field that are considerably higher than the quantity supposedly on hand at that time. (3)

Army units began to receive their Spencer rifles in January of 1863. The 5th and 6th Michigan cavalry were probably the first units in the Federal Army to get repeaters. The 5th, 6th and 7th Independent Ohio Sharpshooters in the Army of the Cumberland were also early recipients. The Navy issued their first deliveries to ships in the Mississippi flotilla and the east coast blockading fleet at about the same time. Colonel John Wilder's Lightning Brigade, a mounted infantry unit in the Army of the Cumberland was another early recipient of Spencer rifles. Interestingly, about a third of the army's rearmed units were cavalry. In a tacit admission of the increasing use of cavalry as mounted infantry, several mounted companies turned in handy single shot carbines for awkward (at least on horseback) repeating rifles. (4)

The first use of issued Spencers is also hard to determine with certainty. Among the first operations to include them were naval landings along the Carolina coast in early 1863. These were not strongly opposed and no major battles developed. The Mississippi flotilla used their Spencers early against the numerous bushwhackers who had taken to hiding in the dense cover along rivers and sniping at passing Federal boats. Again, these were nothing like pitched battles.

Colonel John Wilder was certainly among the first field commanders to use repeaters effectively on the battlefield. Wilder's Lightning Brigade probably saved the battle of Hoovers Gap, Tennessee, on June 24th '63. They filled and held the center of a thin and under supported Federal line and held against a vastly superior Confederate force. Braxton Bragg's Confederates believed that a fresh corps was coming up, so great was the volume of fire put out by the Lightning Brigade. The southerners fell back to reinforce and reorganize. Bragg's troops then counter-attacked but could not carry the field. When the Confederates finally yielded, the Federals had shot away almost their entire ammunition supply of 142 rounds per man. This was the first major battle for the new repeaters. It was also the first of many instances where the fire power of Spencers in the hands of cool veteran troops staved off defeat.(5) Interestingly, the Confederate losses were not unusually high, 19 killed and 126 wounded out of an entire brigade.

With the introduction of substantial numbers of repeaters to front line units, a change in the style of command, and the types of commanders rapidly took place. Officers with unusually large amounts of bravado (and possibly disregard for the welfare of their troops) began to succeed using tactics that heretofore would have been near suicidal. This change did not find its way up the chain of command, though. Overall battle tactics remained pretty much as they had been at the outbreak of the war. It is interesting to note that Spencer armed companies, with a few notable exceptions, were not singled out as skirmishers or reserves to be thrown forward at critical points.

Possibly the best example of a commander whose career was made by Christopher Spencer's guns is George A. Custer. At the battle of Brandy Station, in June of 1863, Colonel Custer participated in one of his first charges. It passed over a mile up Fleetwood hill. Beyond support and mounted on fast tiring horses, the operation quickly degenerated into a stampede with great loss. A week later at the battle of Aldie, he again participated in one of the grand charges that would become his trademark. The Confederate center was the point of attack. Although this operation covered less distance, it still lacked support and his troops took a terrible pounding. (6)

There had been no Spencer armed troops in either battle. However, after Aldie, the Spencer armed 5th and 6th Michigan Cavalry were taken from picket duty in the defenses of Washington and assigned to Custer's brigade.

On July 3rd, 1863, Irvin Gregg's Cavalry Corps once again met Jeb Stuart's Confederate troopers. The venue was just east of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. The Confederates were attempting to flank the Federal army in support of Pickett's ill fated charge. This time the ambitious Michigan commander put together a grand cavalry spectacle. The difference was that the Michigan troopers were dismounted as skirmishers in support of Custer's mounted attack. The southern cavalry was finally stopped by a bold federal charge. That evening, Lieutenant Farnsworth, who was every bit as bold as Custer, was killed in a similar charge against the south end of the Confederate line. None of his troops had Spencers, and none were dismounted in support. These sorts of tactics relied heavily on the firepower of repeaters for any hope of success. (7) In fact, Custer remarked in a letter to the Spencer company that, once his entire command had been armed with repeaters, he would not hesitate to engage the enemy when outnumbered almost two to one. (8)

As one can readily imagine, word of such spectacular results against great odds spread like wildfire through the army. Every commander tried to requisition the new rifles for his troops. Custer pulled every political string he could find to have his entire bri gade armed with Spencers. The brass in Washington however, remained cool to the idea of equipping the whole army with $40 repeaters, especially when they already had over a million $18 musket s on order. The limited supply of rifles was doled out to units with especially good records of front line service. The prized repeaters were even issued as rewards to individual soldiers for conspicuous valor.

By the summer of 1863, the Spencer company was finishing up the Army' s 7500 rifle order with no more federal contracts on the way. In spite of the clumsiness of rifles when used on horseback, the Spencer lever action had obvious advantages for mounted troopers. To keep the company going, the Ordinance Department was offered a deal for 22 inch barrel carbines. The short guns were much easier to make, so the price could be cut to less than that of the most accepted carbine in the army, the Sharps. Sharps' single shot carbine was being purchased at $28.50 when Spencer offered repeaters for $25.00. (9) Washington was fin ally beginning to grasp the advantage of repeaters, especially at $25.00. They quickly accepted the deal. The first repeating carbine was not delivered until October of 1863.

When the short guns appeared, they were an immediate success. (Altho ugh the 2nd Ohio did complain that the new Spencers were excessively heavy and wanted their Burnsides back. (10)) The first units to get the new carbines were those with outstanding service records. Many of these turned in Spencer rifles.

Front line units in the cavalry of the Army of the Potomac were at t he top of the priority list for repeating carbines, but commands in the west also received them. By the time General Wilson undertook his famous raid through the deep south, there were enoug h repeaters in the Army of the Tennessee that he could equip the entire party with them. He did this by calling in all Spencers from units not participating and issuing single shot weapons to them. This raid was immortalized by John Wayne in the movie The Horse Soldiers, but without the Spencers Wilson had found indispensable.

As with all other Federal weapons, Spencers were soon captured by the South and put to use against their former owners. The new guns were a great success, especiall y along the boarder, where Spencer rimfire ammunition was fairly easy to come by. Federal supp ly lines proved a ready source . These were more or less constantly raided by Confederate cavalry right up to the end of the war. The first reported Confederate use of a Spencer was by Sergeant W.O. Johnson, Co. C of the 49th Va. Infantry on July 3rd, 1863. He used one of the repeaters in fight ing around Culps Hill at the battle of Gettysburg. (12) How an infantry sergeant managed to captur e a Spencer so quickly, and with an apparently adequate supply of ammunition, is a mystery. In the east they had been issued only to the 5th and 6th Michigan cavalry. Up to that date, there had been no major engagements between northern cavalry and southern infantry in the Gettysb urg campaign. Unfortunately for the Confederates, copper was in such short supply by 1863 that the south was never able to provide domestically manufactured cartridges. Once capt ured ammunition was exhausted, the guns were sent to the nearest depot for storage. It was always hoped that a supply of cartridges could be obtained by some unknown means, then repeaters wou ld be issued again to the Confederate mounted service. Thousands of the best weapons to be used in the conflict waited out the war as mechanical POWs. (11) Several cavalry units in the Confederate army were at least partiall y equipped with Spencer repeaters. The 43rd Va. Cavalry had an unusually good supply of the best federal arms. The unit operated on the boarder and their commander, John Mosby, specialized in appropriating Yankee goods for Southern service. Beginning in 1864, there were always several troopers armed with Spencers in the ranks, even thought Mosby himself preferred revolving pis tols for raiding operations. Returns of the 43rd for November of 1864 show 167 Spencer rif les and carbines on hand. (13) Terry's Texas Rangers also appear to have been fairly well equ ipped with them by late 1864.

Probably the greatest tribute to Christopher Spencer's repeaters was given by the men that had carried them. At the end of the war, many used their final pay to purchas e the very guns they had carried. General Edwards of the 37th Massachusetts Infantry wrote to the Ordinance Department in June 1865:

"Our regiment was armed with the Spencer rifle on the 14th day of July, 1864, and we first had the opportunity of testing them in an engagement at Summit Point (Wes t) Virginia."......" At whatever position we have ever been placed, we have always found them to be our best and truest friend. At Sailors Creek, Virginia, April 6th 1865, we came off victorious over Custis Lee's brigade, that had enveloped us so closely on three sides that the bayonet was freely used." "The rifles now mostly are property of the men, and show the marks of hard service and exposure to all kinds of weather, but are still in as good serviceable condition as ever." (14)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.) Civil War Breech Loading Rifles, John D. McAulay, Andrew W. Mowbray Inc. 1987, PP 101 & 108, ISBN 0-917218-29-9.
There are several other accounts of Lombard with widely varying details. The original is a brief mention in the company history of the 1st Mass. Cavalry. McAuley's is one of the latest, and his research is generally quite good. An interesting point is that Lombard has not turned up in the Spencer company records.

2.) Civil War Guns, William B. Edwards, The Stackpole Company, 1962, Pg. 149.

3.) Returns from the 5th Company of Independent Ohio Vol. Sharpshooters show Spencer Rifle number 10273 in the company on Aug. 16, 1863. Up to that date, Ordinance Department records show that only 8205 had been delivered, including both the Army and Navy orders. It is known that Spencer M-1863 serial numbers start with 1 on the Navy contract. So, it is unlikely that there are some 2000 unaccounted numbers. This contradiction appears with several other patent firearms. Springfield Research Service Serial Numbers of U.S. Martial Arms, Volume 3, Nov. 1990, Pg.117, ISBN 0-9603306-4-X Civil War Breech Loading Rifles, John D. McAulay, Andrew W. Mowbray Inc. 1987, PP 98& 108, ISBN 0-917218-29-9

4.) Spencer Repeating Firearms, Roy Marcot, Northwood Heritage Press, 1983

5.) Civil War Firearms, Joe Bilby, Combined Books, 1996, PP 198-200, ISBN 0-938289-79-9

6.) The Cavalry at Gettysburg, Edward G. Longacre, University of Nebraska Press, 1986/'93, PP 76-81 & 104-109 ISBN 0-8032-7941-8

7.) Ibid. PP 237-244

8.) Spencer Company Catalog, 1865

9.) Carbines of the Civil War, John D. McAuley, Pioneer Press, 1981, PP 11 & 23, ISBN 0-913159-45-2

10.) Op. Cit., Joe Bilby, pg XXX

11.) Civil War Guns, William B. Edwards, The Stackpole Company, 1962, PP. 155-156

12.) Civil War Breech Loading Rifles, John D. McAulay, Andrew W. Mowbray Inc. 1987, PP 105, ISBN 0-917218-29-9

13.) Ibid., PP 105

14.) Spencer Repeating Firearms, Roy Marcot, Northwood Heritage Press, 1983, P 87, ISBN 0-9611494


(c) 1998 by A. M. Beck">

[RJSamp]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Great reading. Were you as surprised as I was that the Critters were armed with Spencer's at Outpost III?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Hallo!

Thanks for the information.

In brief and to over-generalize...

Historically you are talking about both the M1860 Spencer Rifle and M1860 Carbine.

The Italian repro Spencer is the M1865 Carbine. The first shipment of M1865 Carbines to the Ordnance Department was April 3, 1865 as 327 with 680 M1860's. The next batch was shipped April 12, 1865 including 127 M1865's and 873 M1860's. All remaining shipments between April 25th and January 1, 1866 were Model 1865's.

The first batch of M1860 Carbines, 1,000 in number, were delivered to the Ordnance Department on October 3, 1863. Followed by 1,000 batches each on October 23, November 4, November 18, December 7, December 18, December 22, and December 31, 1863.

Curt
Spencercist Mess

[Rev]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

I've a buddy who has tried his hand at using the .410 in a way similar to what the author states. He's given it up. The shells only lasted for one round in his rifle. Unless you shoot a lot of woodcock or snipe witha .410 the hull price will get up there.

[Bob Taylor]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Hallo!

That would be Company "C," 7th Ohio Independent Company of Volunteer Sharpshooters, but that is "living history" and live-fire.
Although I do have a bag of 200 plastic blanks somewhere I have never used.

I was, once, going to buy or have made a "Spencer blank crimper" for the reloading station- but the process, IMHO is inherently dangerous as the "star" pattern or little fingers of brass slit and crimped to close the blank can break off and become a small projectile...)


Curt

Curt
Do you do the nssa stuff with the sharpshooters? I hear that it is fun but expensive.
The way the article was written concerning the blanks is that they are made from 410 shells and are only brass at the base. The part that is crimped is all plastic. There is a picture in the article. Do you think that they represent a safety risk?
Bob Taylor

[Bob Taylor]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Mike
Thanks for the posting. I remember reading this article by Beck a long time ago and it was good to refresh my mind.
Bob Taylor

[Bob Taylor]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Rev
I shoot a lot of Skeet and Trap up here so I expect that I can get a lot of empties from the Skeet field over the winter. This should keep the costs down to something manageable. I have already gotten over 500 free from the fields just in case I go ahead with it.
Did your friend say how well they performed in the field? Also if he has decided not to continue with his Spencer do you know if he is going to sell it?
Bob Taylor

[Rev]

Re: Using a Spencer for reenacting???

Good news on the hulls. He did have problems with the crimps holding and powder leakage. He will still be using the rifle as a 'real' rifle. So, it will not be for sale anytime soon. He keeps trying to out shoot me. And, I don't have any sort of cartridge gun in black powder