Cap Pouch authenticity question

[Thumper]

I have a friend who is interested in getting a Painted Cloth Cartridge Box. However, he is most interested in authenticity. The unit we belong too is the 44th GA which was an ANV regiment.

Did painted cloth cartridge boxes have wide spread usage? Would their use be appropriate to a late war ANV unit?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that painted cloth accuterments were more common in the Western theater but I could be mistaken.

Does anyone know of a good source for a painted cloth cartridge box? I have checked with S&S, C. J. Daley and the Jersey Skillet Licker but they do not currently have any.

Thanks,

Tom Glaze/Thumper

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: Painted Cloth Cartridge Box

Tom,

There are only a few folks that I can think of off the top of my head. One would be Don Smith of the now reduced-in-capacity Trans-Mississippi Depot. He doesn't do much in the way of specialty ordered items so unless he happens to make up a few and sends them up to Family Heirloom Weavers for their storefront, your best bet is probably to scan the "want to sell" folder and leap on any that might pop up there.

Another source is Ethan Rogers. Here is a link to his website:
http://erogers_tarredgoods.tripod.co...ods/index.html

Butch Meyers may also do painted cloth accoutrements, although the old price list/catalog that I have for him doesn't indicate that. Here is his contact info should you want it:
J. R. Myers Company.
Manufacturer of 19th Century
Martial Accouterments.

6507 Horsepen Road
Richmond, Virginia 23226
804.288.9380

Hope this helps.

Fred Baker

[coastaltrash]

Re: Painted Cloth Cartridge Box

Layton Young made my box and cap box. I can't remember how to directly get in touch with him, but Justin Morris sold his stuff for a while.

Tom,

There are only a few folks that I can think of off the top of my head. One would be Don Smith of the now reduced-in-capacity Trans-Mississippi Depot. He doesn't do much in the way of specialty ordered items so unless he happens to make up a few and sends them up to Family Heirloom Weavers for their storefront, your best bet is probably to scan the "want to sell" folder and leap on any that might pop up there.

Another source is Ethan Rogers. Here is a link to his website:
http://erogers_tarredgoods.tripod.co...ods/index.html

Butch Meyers may also do painted cloth accoutrements, although the old price list/catalog that I have for him doesn't indicate that. Here is his contact info should you want it:
J. R. Myers Company.
Manufacturer of 19th Century
Martial Accouterments.

6507 Horsepen Road
Richmond, Virginia 23226
804.288.9380

Hope this helps.

Fred Baker

[1842musket]

Re: Painted Cloth Cartridge Box

Tom,
The aforementioned vendors are excellent sources (although I'm not sure if Mr. Myers does painted cloth items; wouldn't hurt to ask) for these type of accoutrements. However to my knowledge painted cloth infantry gear had a somewhat limited use in the ANV versus the AOT.
There is a painted cloth roller buckle waistbelt that has an Eastern provenance as well as the somewhat well known painted linen cartridge box sling with the figure 8 stich in the Fredericksburg/Spotsylvania Military Park collection. With the exception of perhaps a cap pouch I've been told about, these are the only surviving painted cloth accoutrements with provenance to the ANV/Eastern Theatre. There may have been others (including cartridge boxes) but none have survived that are documented to an ANV soldier.
Painted cloth accoutrements were in somewhat common use in the AOT from about mid-War on and are well documented. I would suggest your friend, if he wants to be more specific to the ANV, go with a generic (ie unmarked) set of CS Leather accoutrements. Besides Mr. Myers, he can check out Bob Serio's site, www.missouribootandshoe.com, as he can make these items also.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Larry McIrvin

[Reserve]

Re: Painted Cloth Cartridge Box

Actually there are at least two painted cloth cartridge boxes identified with the ANV. One is in the AH Stephens Hist. Site collection and the other I believe is still in a private collection. The one in the AH Stephens collection appears very similar in pattern to those believed to have been issued here in the western theater. The second box is of the much more rare (at least originals are) belt carriage only type painted cloth box. Either type would be obviously be correct for ANV, at least in limited numbers. I have no way of saying exactly how many painted cloth boxes were issued in the east. However, cap boxes, belts, slings etc. are all known to have been used in the east as well you can take from that the serious possibility that sets were issued in the east as well.

[1842musket]

Re: Painted Cloth Cartridge Box

Ethan,
Thanks for sharing that information. I was not aware that these painted cloth cartridge boxes had an ANV provenance. Do you have any further details on them (i.e. approx. dates of use, possible manufacture in an eastern facility, etc.)?
Thanks,
Larry McIrvin

[A7X]

leathers and tarred goods patterns?

I was wondering if anyone knows where i would be able to get patterns for leather goods of any kinda along with haversacks.


~Knapsacks
~haversacks
~belts,catridge boxes, cap boxes

thanks

~Jonathan Kroppmann

[KathyBradford]

Re: leathers and tarred goods patterns?

Hi, Jonathan,

A Confederate Sketchbook has several "measured drawings" for articles you mentioned.

Moses Alexander white cotton haversack
Cartridge box sling
Confederate cartridge box
Confederate cap pouch
Leather wallet
plus some clothing and other things.

The U.S. Pattern Book contains clothing drawings and step-by-step measurement and sewing instructions.

The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium second edition is due out this year, and the first edition is still available.

I would be very interested in the opinions of others who know more about the authenticity of the patterns in the first two books mentioned.

Good luck!

P.S. I sent you a check for the Daley Jacket. Thank you.

[JACKSONVC]

Confederate Cap Box

I don't normally look over in ebay for items, however this one appeared. Pretty interesting Confederate cap box out of St Louis, Mo.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229973736&category=13960

[JACKSONVC]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

I should have added this to the orginal tread, I was under the Impression that Sickles made equipment for the union army. The question is, did Sickles in St. Louis make equipment on the side for the Confederacy? Or are we looking at a piece of equipment that was captured and sent to a depot where it was remarked as CS property? This is the only example I have ever seen that was made in the North and has a Southern stamp on it. As usual, I am leary of anything listed on Ebay.

[Holy Joe]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

This one's been bothering me since it was first posted here....I think you have good reason to be leary of this "artifact". Looks to me like a fake, or possibly an original with a post-war 'fantasy' stamping.



From Oldguns.net;

http://oldguns.net/cgi-bin/f2f/f2f.pl?http://www.oldguns.net/catmilpreww2.htm

"8318 REPRODUCTION CIVIL WAR CARTRIDGE BOX- BROWN - Brown leather with CS embossed on the flap. Medium quality workmanship, probably typical of a lot of Confederate stuff. This has been used by a reenactor a bit, so it is scuffed and show a little use, not quite as obvious as a brand new repro. Fine for display or for collector on a budget who cannot yet afford one of the megabucks originals. $39.00"

here's a photo for ya

http://www.oldguns.net/8318.jpg

A word about J.B. Sickles & Co.;

"Had army contracts on Aug. 30, 1862 for 10,000 sets each of .58 cal. & .69 cal. accouterments & on Oct. 21, 1862 for 2,000 carbine boxes & 2,000 Remington pistol holsters. Had a contract on Dec. 3, 1862 for 2,000 Remington holsters. On Mar. 3, 1863, had two contracts for a total of 20,000 sets of .58 cal. infantry accouterments...." American Military Goods Dealers and Makers1875-1915

Is it just me, or this box constructed of hemlock tanned goods? IIRC, hemlock was to be rejected by US inspectors prior to December of 1863 (well after the original Sickles contracts). Perhaps this was overlooked, although several documented cases of "mixed-tanned leather" were rejected in late 1863. (See Johnson, Paul D. Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman) Or could this have been standard oak-tanned leather with a 'chemical' strip applied for that hardkewl 'russet' look? I've never seen oak-tanned 'fade' to this extent (thus the possible hemlock explanation)...but I'm still fairly green when it comes to leatherworking....

I could be dead-wrong on this, but the combination of 'inferior' material, combined with a reversed belt loop should surely have called for this box to be rejected. (Also note the positioning of the rivet heads, indicating that the belt loops were riveted on before the box was sewn together)....but who knows....I just don't have a good 'gut' feeling on this one....I'd pass!

for comparison's sake, here's a 'real' J.B. Sickles cap box

http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/Leather_Goods/Cap_Box_Sickles_and_Co_/cap_box_sickles_and_co_.html

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

This item is truely sad. It appears that somebody took an original US box and put that silly CS emboss on it. Talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

Gary

It also looks like the "Old guns" site is parting out a 12th Corps clothing book. SAD!

[JACKSONVC]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

Thanks for the info. I did some looking around the web today, and yes, this item certianly looks less than authentic. Captured leathers were not restamped with any markings, unlike what happens today. I guess this is a good lesson in buyer beware. Again, thanks for the insight.

[Holy Joe]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

Gary

It also looks like the "Old guns" site is parting out a 12th Corps clothing book. SAD!

http://oldguns.net/5670.jpg

absolutely sickening!