Cap Pouch authenticity question

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

http://oldguns.net/5670.jpg

absolutely sickening!

It is sad to think of all the reseach that has been destroyed by people looking for a buck like this.

[Djarnagin]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

The cap pouch is a hemlock tanned piece. It is also a real Sickles made piece. The stamp is more than likely applied after the war. There is some grain tubing around the edges of the CS stamp but not inside the stamp, which show that the cap pouch was used prior to stamping. There is several strange spots in the stamp itself and it looks like this may have been the second try to stamp it.

The backstrap being different on the cap pouch does not bother me at all; this is a common thing for Sickles. I own an original cap pouch where both backstraps are made from waxed leather. These just shows he used up his scrap leather. During the Civil War a contractor ordered his leather in from the tannery already dyed and finished. Since at the time this cap pouch was made more than likely the belts and cartridge box belts were contracted in waxed leather.

You do not have all the contracts listed that Sickles had. I know of a later contract and there also must have been an earlier one as well. I own an original cap pouch that was made for the rifleman’s belt. This cap pouch has the long loop and no rivets at all, and is the only one known to exist so far. This would have been copied from the pre war items that went through St Louis prior to the war.

This is only the second item made by Sickles that was made out of hemlock tanned leather. Most of all the western accouterments that I have seen have been made from oak tanned leather. This would be what I expected since there is no hemlock tanning listed west of Pennsylvania.

I have seen one oak piece that was stripped of the black color. This is not an easy process. It can be done by oxalic acid. This is still done today by tanneries to remove iron stains, but there is no evidence that this acid was known about at the time of the Civil War. I have not found a single listing for the oxalic acid.

Inspectors knowing what hemlock tanned leather looked like is very unlikely. This is due in large part to the secretive nature of the tanners. The ordnance officers would have to have gotten their information from the tanners and this was not information that would have been shared. The 19th century way of selling leather is different than today, tanners bought and sold raw and finished goods through brokers. This is the reason tannery stamps are found on certain leather items. Every tannery would have marked there leather with this stamp so the reputation of the tannery would not have been soiled by unscrupulous tanners or brokers that sold inferior leather at higher prices as being from a reputable tannery.

For more information on hemlock tanned leather look for my up coming article on the subject. In this article I tell how the fading process happens and that it was a well known problem. I also list the ways tanners cheated to get around this fading process.

[Holy Joe]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

The cap pouch is a hemlock tanned piece. It is also a real Sickles made piece.

The backstrap being different on the cap pouch does not bother me at all; this is a common thing for Sickles. I own an original cap pouch where both backstraps are made from waxed leather. These just shows he used up his scrap leather.

This is only the second item made by Sickles that was made out of hemlock tanned leather.

Mr. Jarnagin,

Excellent points. Thanks for the clarification! It's sad that someone has 'mucked up' what would have been (and in some ways still is) a beautiful piece. I do have some questions about the later sickles contracts, and would like to contact you offline if that's possible.

Thanks,

[Djarnagin]

Re: Confederate Cap Box

Gary,

That would be fine. If you want to see my display of St. Louis leather I would suggest that you come to the Company of Military Historians annual meeting in May. I also will have a display about leather preservation at the same show.

[Kykeydet12]

Cap pouch trivia

hey guys :
i have a question on cap pouches:

what type of fur goes in it and how is it attatched? mine came with fake fur inside of it , like the stuff you can buy at wal-mart, I pulled it off and it was superglued on the inside.

also i heard that most cap pouches hada a small hole for a nipple pick is this true?

I'll be having more questions later . thanks.

Hallo Herr Rob! Thank you for your posts on the AC Forum. I am going to suggest that you take a moment or two and step back to evaluate your current level of interest and application. Some of the purposes of the AC Forum are to promote and foster serious, researched, and documentable discussion of Civil War soldier impressions, and serve as a research referral source/resource for members on uniform, equipment, and reference/resource questions. Since you are new to this Forum, I recommend that you read posts for a while to get an idea of the types of questions asked; the style of writing used; how discussion, research and information referral works here for those committed to pursuing so-called Authentic Campaigning and more factual, historical-based impressions and activities.

There are other CW fora where those with different Mental Pictures and applications often find formats and other people more closely aligned with their own interests and levels that are different from the AC Forum's goals and operation. Your "Cap Pouch" posting appears to read as either Flame Bait or the posting of a rather new person perhaps or even likely, not yet or quite at, ready to post and discuss on this Forum in terms of their own Mental Picture.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, this time, and assume you are not a Troll or Flame Baiter. But I also tend to think you may not quite understand the purpose and workings of the AC Forum, and/or have not progressed far enough on your own personal Journey to be ready to post and share here.
You may want to read here on the AC Forums, and post really basic, "newcomer" type questions on those fora better suited, and known for,
basic level interests and applications.

Feel welcome here to learn, grow, and progress- just be sure you are ready and have a grasp of how things "work" on the AC Forum, information, and discussions. (Hint, posting a question based that you had "heard something" is not. Neither are references to Wal Mart.)

Also, the AC Forum is place for serious, documentable, and as far as possible, academic-based postings and discussions. "IM Style" of error-filled writing- with poor syntax, spacing, capitalization, and spelling, etc., DETRACTS from that.
Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

hey guys :
i have a question on cap pouches:

what type of fur goes in it and how is it attatched? mine came with fake fur inside of it , like the stuff you can buy at wal-mart, I pulled it off and it was superglued on the inside.

also i heard that most cap pouches hada a small hole for a nipple pick is this true?

I'll be having more questions later . thanks.

Nothing from Walmart ever was used in original Civil War accoutrements...
NOTHING. People need to stop mentioning Walmart here!!! :angry_smi :angry_smi :angry_smi :angry_smi
QUIT MENTIONING WALMART! :angry_smi

For your questions why don't you do some research? Do a 'Google' search...
I'm sure you can find some info if you do some research for yourself.

This shouldn't be the place to start your research... Read some books, articles, etc. Then ask...


From the 1850 Ordnance Manual:

CAP POUCH: (black bridle leather,) length and depth 3 inches; width 11.25
inch-inner cover, with end pieces-flap, made of the same piece as the back,
with a button hole strap at the bottom-brass button, riveted under the bottom of the pouch-2 loops, sewed to the back, 2. 5 inches long, to admit a waist belt, of 2 inches-lining: a strip of sheepskin, with the wool on, 1.5 inch wide, glued with fish glue, and sewed to the back, at the mouth of the pouch.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Here are two excellent books you and your chums will no doubt greatly appreciate over time:

The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium, and the article by John Tobey starting on page II.18 answers your questions and more. This is just one article of many chock full of useful and easy to implement information aimed at fine tuning the impression.

Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman by Paul D. Johnson will also add to your knowledge of CW era accoutrements.

Similar articles and books are available for scabbards, shelter halves, canteens, and other issue items.

Charles Heath

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Rob,

I'm just curious, who made your cap pouch?

Ryan,

You are correct..... Some people in this forum need to stop mentioning stores like Walmart, JoAnn fabrics, K-mart, etc. etc... These places should never be considered for anything.

[SCSecesh]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

You are correct..... JoAnn fabrics, . . . etc. etc... These places should never be considered for anything.

Interesting broad statement! I have found a 100% cotton drill at Joann's that more closely replicates some period drill than anything I've seen to date from the hobby side of fabric production! The Irish linen for shirting I stumbled into was very good as well if you were willing to drop the $$ on it. Both fabrics compare favorably to period pieces. While finding two pieces in a store full of cloth is not a "bonanza", it certainly was a find!

[Kykeydet12]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Rob,

I'm just curious, who made your cap pouch?

Ryan,

You are correct..... Some people in this forum need to stop mentioning stores like Walmart, JoAnn fabrics, K-mart, etc. etc... These places should never be considered for anything.

pard:
to be honest it was bought as a christmas present last year by my uncle, and if your wondering .Also in our area JoAnn fabric stocks many period fabrics, including linen, calico, and a for a small time there linsey woolsey .

respectfully yours,
Robert Young

[CaptainUCSB]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Curt,
Dont you think you jumped down his throat a bit quicky? True his question may not have been the most educated question posted on this forum, but for somebody trying to make his first jumps to authenticity it was a perfectly good question.

Something that often gets in the way of mainstreamers/farbs moving in the realm of authenticity is the attitude of authentics/hardcores. The attitudes of the hardcores in my area delayed my authenticity for at least a year. I knew they looked good and I wanted to be a part of that, but they were jerks to me whenever I asked even the easiest questions or even when I walked by.

Thanks to Don Smith for being the one in the group to actually take an interest in me, rather than putting his nose up in the air like everybody else in that group did. If he hadn't, I'd still be running the fields yelling "yee-haw" with my farby crap on! (OK, I never yelled "Yee-haw")

As for the generalized statement against modern stores, I dont have much to say. Just realize that it was a very GENERALIZED statement.

[dusty27]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Patrick ed al,

Curt doesn't need defending here. GENERALLY speaking, modern retail operations are not the first, second or third source for material for the more authentic side of the hobby. On a website that tries to cater to this side of the hobby, mentioning this type of source is going to be looked down upon.

Another point I'd like to make here, again, is that many of the questions here asked by the "new" guys can be answered using other sources on the net, asking pards within the unit, or using the search feature on this or other fora.

I would like to reiterate what Curt has said, new guys should be doing a lot more reading here and research in their libraries.

[sivart]

Re: Why can't we all get along?

“New guys” So what when are you not considered a new guy? Is there a test? I think everybody is a new guy to something, as we all don’t know everything about this hobby, or everything about anything

"New guys" is defined by the join date and number of posts made on this forum. New guy is in reference to this forum, not to reenacting.

I have to agree with Patrick. We authentic minded reenactors need to be nicer and more understanding to out brethren who have not seen the light. Telling them not to ask questions that you deem inappropriate will not help us in any way. In fact that is a way to deter people from asking questions, and if you cant ask how will you learn?

I'm not saying to not ask questions. What I am saying is do some research into your question elsewhere and if you still have questions, come on here with some knowledge of your subject matter, not "what kind of fur is in cap boxes?"

As a test, when I saw the original post, I put "Civil War cap boxes" into a Google search and found out in seconds that original cap boxes had/have wool inside, not "fur".

The poster could have done the same thing.....

Sure he could have done more research, and I am not saying he still shouldn’t but c’mon, do we really have to complain about it, wouldn’t it be easier to just to answer his question? Maybe he doesn’t have access to everything that is needed to do research. Because if he is a “new guy” chances are he won’t have the reading material available to him that some of us have amassed. And you can’t find everything on the Internet. (Well not yet) :wink_smil

As many have said here before, he could go to the library to get research material. And you can find quite a bit on the internet if you take the time.

I’m sure that when you started reenacting, you just didn’t all of a sudden know everything, I can guarantee it. And you probably don’t know everything now.

I don't presume to know anything, then or now. I do know how to do research, however, which I enjoy and I like to pass on things that I have learned.

This forum is as much here for experienced and “newer” authentic reenactors alike. So lets just all try and get along, and not rip peoples heads off if they make a comment that you deem inappropriate.

Anyone can use the forum. I just wish they would read more and learn before asking some questions. The "ripping peoples' heads off" comes from the frustration of explaining this concept so many times.

Dusty

[CaptainUCSB]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

I will only respond to one thing you said: he can ask a pard in his unit?

First of all, can we please stop using the term pard? It sounds ridiculous and isnt authentic at all.

Second, if he is a member of a farby unit in Canada, do you really think his "pards" will be able or willing to answer any of his authenticity questions?

[SCSecesh]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

JoAnn fabric stocks many period fabrics, including linen, calico, and a for a small time there linsey woolsey .

respectfully yours,
Robert Young

I've never seen their Linsey woolsey, the calico is not very good and doesn't look like anything I've seen from the period. There are a few small quilting shops around that often carry printed fabric patterns that can be traced back to the period mills, but you have to look. Even some Smithsonian patterns around. Be careful with the linen as well, much it has rayon or some other synthetic in the make make-up and/or if very loosely woven, with a number of the slubs far beyond what I've seen to date. If the linen isn't about $12-$14/yard, I'd be somewhat suspect!