Cap Pouch authenticity question

[flattop32355]

Re: Why can't we all get along?

The "ripping peoples' heads off" comes from the frustration of explaining this concept so many times.
Dusty

That is the occupational hazard you accept as being a teacher, whether as a paid professional or as a dedicated reenactor or in any other fashion. Remember back to your own education: Which teachers meant the most to you; the ones who told you that you should already know the answer because it's written in the book or was covered in the lecture, or the one who went over it again to make sure you understood the answer, and maybe even showed you how to find the answers better yourself next time?

I just got done dealing with this exact type of problem with a fellow reenactor. He is reasonably grateful for the simple help provided, which cost me a total of about 3 minutes of my time (A damn good investment I would say, too. :wink_smil ). And I'm just a lowly mainstreamer with a brain!

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Rob, to answer your question. Judging from the many I've looked at, the fur on the interior of the pouch should be shearling, or as some may call it lambs wool, sewn into the inside, not glued. The nipple pick was meant to be kept in a small leather loop sewn in the left side seem. And while I'm at it most of them were patented leather, and I'm sure many will disparage that info. Email me directly and I can give you more details from the original sheild front pouch I own.

[kemper_rifles]

Re: Cap pouch trivia

Dusty,


Please don't forget to sign your edits of signed posts with your full name.

Thank you.

Yep, some people's kids.

[Michael Comer]

Oiled leather cartridge boxes

I have been trying with little success to find information on the prevalence of non-black Confederate cartridge boxes. I mean either oiled leather only or brown dyed etc. I do not have access to the books about this sort of thing I see referenced on this forum.

If they were common - or at least not unusual - what theater were they to be found in the most. I have in mind the Houston depot box which could have been an undyed or oiled leather, but were there others?

If anyone has some info on it I would appreciate it.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Oiled leather cartridge boxes

Identifying Confederate accoutrements by color is somewhat problematic. First, there were no regulation patterns as we understand them with regards to the US arsenal system. While there were specifications as to size and features (materials to be used, dimensions, capacity, etc...) a great variety of accoutrements were accepted into service using different materials, designs, methods of carriage etc... While black seems to have been preferred, oiled or undyed accoutrements do not appear to have been uncommon.

That said, identifying accoutrements by color can be problematic as weak dyestuffs could have turned a box that was originally black to a brown or reddish-brown. Conversely, a box that was originally oiled and appearing brown when issued could have been extensively oiled and treated over the years and might now appear almost black. Much like uniforms, judging what color an item was then, in the era of natural dyes, can be problematic.

To make matters even more complicated, there are extant originals from the same makers (most CS accoutrements weren't marked and can't be identified to a maker) in both black and oiled. McKensie of Charleston, SC; the Houston Arsenal; and MacGee and George all appear to have made accoutrements in both blackened and oiled leather.

All that said my friend, I don't think your question can be answered. In fact, I don't think you could have answered your questions in 1865! Confederate accoutrements were definitely manufactured using a wide variety of materials, patterns, and construction techniques. To be "right" for your impression, your best bet (unless you are doing a specific impression) is to get a generic set of CS accoutrements. A .58 box of a standard pattern and having no maker's marks with sling and/or belt loops, a full-front (AKA "shield-front") or CS copy of US 1850 cap box, and a documented CS pattern scabbard is pretty much good for most theaters and most impressions. From there, you can pick up extra pieces to fine tune for your impression.

[markj]

Re: Oiled leather cartridge boxes

Hi,

One REALLY long-shot possibility might be to check through the surviving Confederate regimental order/clothing book collections (Record Group 94) and Compiled Service Records (M268), at the National Archives, for the units that may be of most interest to you.

Just last week, I looked at all the surviving books for Brown's Brigade (23rd TN BN, 18th, 26th, 32nd, & 45th TN) and did occasionally find references to the color of specific items issued. Alas, I saw nothing regarding accoutrements (unless it dealt with caliber of ammunition carried) but I did note issues of "Read [sic: red?] shoes," "white wool hats," "grey caps," as well as descriptions of the fabric from which many items were made (e.g., "woolen pants," "jean jackets," "cotton shirts," "lincey" [sic: linsey-woolsey?] shirts," "flannel" & "woolen shirts," &c., &c.). You may get lucky and find that a harried company or regimental clerk actually took the time to go above and beyond merely jotting down "cartridge box," "waist belt," "cap pouch," etc.

Another long-shot might be looking in places like the NARA microfilmed Confederate "Citizens and Business Directory" since these show documents from various military contractors, including those who made accoutrements. In one case, I found a signed 1863 contract between an individual and the Trans-Mississippi Clothing Bureau providing fairly detailed descriptions of clothing and equipage that were to be delivered. I'll be writing about this in a future article of the "Watchdog."

Good luck!

Mark Jaeger

[Djarnagin]

Re: Oiled leather cartridge boxes

Confederates got leather from three sources,

1st being bought from New York, Penn, or Mass., bought through brokers. All this leather was purchased prior to the outbreak of the war or smuggled through. This is told by the amount of hemlock tanned leather in CS manufactured accouterments.

2nd Leather purchased from England. There are records of the amount and type brought over from England.

3rd type and by far the smallest amount are going to be CS tanned leather. The major problems that hurt tanning in the south will be skilled labor and raw hide in quantity.

In order to get a good guess of what was black and russet, you will first need to rule out the hemlock tanned pieces. Confederate EOG is great place to see hemlock faded CS leather. There is a way of telling the faded hemlock piece from the ones that were never dyed, but at this time there is only a hand full of people that can even spot the differences. I have an article on hemlock tanned leather that should be published in the next year in the CMH Journal. This article will tell the how and why hemlock fades.

There are examples of both russet and black accouterments made with English leather. I have viewed two cap pouches made by the same maker and one was black and the other was russet. This means that they imported both russet and black leather from England. The russet color from England was called the London Color, which was a dark brown in color. This color is confused quite often with faded hemlock.

The total overall amount of CS tanned leather will never be known. There is ways of telling that it was still being tanned into late 1864 by the chemicals being imported from England, but at the same time the amount of leather imported is steadily increasing as well. I have found that a large amount of leather was purchased out North Alabama. The amount is in the 5,000 sides range in 1862 and was sent to Richmond. I am still researching this and somewhere in the future I may have better answers. The one that is puzzling me why did the Confederates import White buff leather in 1863, if any one has an answer please let me know?

One last point here is it would not have been oiled leather, but stained or russet leather. Oiled leather is called “common russet” and this is an oil tanned leather used where it needed to be waterproof.

I would make a Huston depot box in the London color, or black due to the fact it more than likely made from English imported leather.

David Jarnagin

[paper cartridge]

Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

Can someone please help me find a company or manufacturer who makes the correct size and shape turned brass cartridge box and cap pouch finials?
Thank you...Ross Nelson

[Cary Davisson]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

Can someone please help me find a company or manufacturer who makes the correct size and shape turned brass cartridge box and cap pouch finials?
Thank you...Ross Nelson

Hello,
Ray Darida at Naugatuck Novelty Co. in Conn. Good luck with those cartridge boxes!
Regards,
Cary Davisson

[VMI88]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

Can someone please help me find a company or manufacturer who makes the correct size and shape turned brass cartridge box and cap pouch finials?
Thank you...Ross Nelson

If you're looking for them in wholesale quantity, try Jim Kindred at Miltary Warehouse (www.milwarehouse.com). Even if you just need a few I'm sure Jim can tell you who carries his products.

[JimConley]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

Based on Cary's work with leather accoutrements, I'd follow his advice. Excellent quality Cary.

[tmdreb]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

I agree with the praise on Cary's work. I don't own any yet, but I've seen a bunch, and it's art! Cary, I've been meaning to give you a call, and I'll do so as soon as I find your number! I've switched computers, and I'll try to find it on the old one soon.

[Canton Zouave]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

Cary,


You never Call, you never Write. So...I will post here. Send me the wood finial if you still need them reproduced.

Also, I will agree...Cary has some good leathers, and his materials are top notch.

To that, I have also been very satisfied with Jim's offering from Military Warehouse, and his service.

I dont think you can go wrong with either choice.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

I am sure you are aware that there are two basic shapes of US CW era Cartridge box finials and several varients of cap box finials. May want to provide a sample of the one you want made whenever you determine a source. Many finials on reproduction boxes don't match any of the ones I have seen. I believe Johnsons book explains who made the round finial and the acorn type. May be worth a look. Have enclosed a pic of some finials. If you need a specific picture or a better qualitity one let me know. I took this one in a hurry because I have to go cut my grass.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Need source for cartridge and cap box finials

I am sure you are aware that there are two basic shapes of US CW era Cartridge box finials and several varients of cap box finials. May want to provide a sample of the one you want made whenever you determine a source. Many finials on reproduction boxes don't match any of the ones I have seen. I believe Johnsons book explains who made the round finial and the acorn type. May be worth a look. Have enclosed a pic of some finials. If you need a specific picture or a better qualitity one let me know. I took this one in a hurry because I have to go cut my grass.

Jim

Could you send me some more photos of different styles of finials? Those would be easy as falling off a log to make.