Cap Pouch authenticity question

[luthhaning]

Re: Confederate cap box

Sam,
The variety of construction techniques and materials can be readily seen in examining just one collection such as the one at Gettysburg N.P. You can see trends but the variety is significant. You could ask the same question of Federal cap pouches to a lesser degree. There are significant differences of patterns in federal cap pouches produced just prior to and during the war if you examine them closely. Each pattern being able to be tracked to a particular arsenal specification and time period. Check out a collection near you sometime if you haven't already. It is always enlightening but also raises new questions to be answered.

Tim Welch
L.D. Haning and Co.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Confederate cap box

What?

Sam, at least you didn't scream "gimme all yer research."

This book doesn't receive the play that it should, but it is well worth reading, even if it has a couple of goobers here and there:

Collecting the Confederacy. Shannon Pritchard. Illustrated, bibliography, index, 274 pp., 2005. Old South Military Antiques LLC, Box 175, Studley, VA 23162

The real vision test is finding the bait box listed as a cap pouch.

[Wabash&Erie]

Original Cap Box

I'm hoping somebody can tell me what I have on my hands. By all appearances it is a surviving leather cap box completely intact with no torn stitches or straps. It has brass finial. It has second inside flap, but there is no wool to retain the cap. Instead, there is a strip of what looks like the chamois you use to dry your car with.

On the outside front is a stamp. It is oval in shape and across the top I think it says G I Woodbury or G K Woodbury. There are two lines in the middle. The top one says US, and the bottom one says ORD DEPT. Curved along the bottom of the oval it appears to say "something" Inspector. However, I think Inspector is spelled incorrectly. It looks like Incpector.

Who made it? Is it actually from the War or before or after? Does it have any value?

Any help that is available will be appreciated.


Regards,
Mark Wallace

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Original Cap Box

Hallo!

Sight unseen... ;)

Yes, it sounds like a Civil War cap box, produced in several similar-looking forms by Federal arsenals and contractors.

That would be G.T. Woodbury who was a Sub-Inspector. He typically inspected the boxes for contractor W.H. Wilkinson of Springfield, Massachusetts.
The "style" of the stamp was set up in July of 1864 by Captain Julian McAllister when he was charged with organizing a new office of sub-inspectors for accoutrement sets and horse equipments being purchased by the Army.
The intact stamp would read:

G.T. WOODBURY
ORD DEPT
SUB-INSPECTOR

The exact appearance of these stamps varies a little by inspector and time.

The "chamois" you see is sheep skin, what is left of the fleece wool strip that was used to keep the caps from bouncing around or out of the box. The wool may have disintegrated and been removed, or possibly been eaten by moths (although mothes will sometimes eat skin too).

"Value" is tricky, based upon maker, condition, region it is sold in, local markets, or captive audience markets such as Gettysburg shops like the "Horse Soldier."
You can browse some of the original CW item website sellers for an idea....

Curt

[65thgainf]

Re: Original Cap Box

Average price for such a cap pouch is around $100.00 or less.

[DaveGink]

Cap Pouch authenticity question

Hello,

I recently purchased a cap pouch (see attached photo) from a vendor listed on the Approved vendor list. It is billed as an early-war 1850 box, smaller front flap, hand sewn, no rivets, niple pick loop. There was no photo on the web site but they are a vendor that I believed to have a good reputation.

Anyway, I am no expert on cap pouches, but upon receiving it, I felt that it is not as authentic as I was expecing it to be. I am hoping someone here can share their expertise and let me know.

From the few photos of authentic early war cap boxes I can find it seems the flap is too large and appears to be more like the mid-to later war box. Also it seems to be sewn with too few stitches per inch. And there does not seem to be a nipple pick loop inside (although billed as such). Also, it appears the belt loops were glued on before sewing (is this an authentic construction technique?). I'm not sure what was used to tan or blacken the leather (I'm guessing it wasn't period).

Anyway, I Emailed the vendor with these questions but have not yet heard back. I'm considering sending it back unless my authenticity concerns are unjustified and it is indeed an "authentic" early-war pouch. So any help here will be appreciated.

Thanks!
Dave

[Marc]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

Can't speak to the authenticity, but it looks fairly sloppy to my eyes. Isn't there a book out on cap boxs that received good reviews a few years back.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

I recently purchased a cap pouch (see attached photo) from a vendor listed on the Approved vendor list. It is billed as an early-war 1850 box, smaller front flap, hand sewn, no rivets, niple pick loop. There was no photo on the web site but they are a vendor that I believed to have a good reputation.

OK...here's my shot...

First Question: Is this supposed to be an Early War Federal Contract Cap Box, or of CS Manufacture?

Also it seems to be sewn with too few stitches per inch.

There is some variance in stitching apparant in existing Federal Accoutrements, with the greatest range of 10-12 Stitches per inch (SPI)...there are of course accoutrements ranging with more/less stitches than this...

Confederate Manufactured Accoutrements tend to range across the board with very sloppy stitches at 4 SPI to very fine stitches 12 SPI

From the few photos of authentic early war cap boxes I can find it seems the flap is too large and appears to be more like the mid-to later war box.

Which flap seems too large? The outer flap, inner flap, or the ear-tabs on the inner flap?

And there does not seem to be a nipple pick loop inside (although billed as such).

The majority of cap pouches I have examined had a place or remnant of a nipple pick holder within the box, that said...not every box I looked at had a nipple pick holder inside. Nevertheless, if it was advertised as having an inner nipple-pick holder...you deserve to have it.

Also, it appears the belt loops were glued on before sewing (is this an authentic construction technique?).

The use of some glue on originals is apparant...although I've never found this apparant on the outside of the pouch...Typically what I can tell remains on originals is traces of hide/fish glue used to hold the wool down inside the pouch (even then, this glue has not been apparant on every box I've examined). Many of the pouches surviving today have what appear to be tack-holes from where it was held together on a wooden mold during various phases of construction.

I'm not sure what was used to tan or blacken the leather (I'm guessing it wasn't period).

A variety of dyes were used during the period including, ferrous-oxide "iron dye", oil-based dyes, and a variety of chemical/ink dyes...

I'm sure we'd all be curious as to who the vendor is...

Hope this helps,

Paul

[Toney]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

Here are some link to pictures of a real one.

http://www.stonesrivertrading.com/L209A.jpg

http://www.stonesrivertrading.com/L209B.jpg

http://www.stonesrivertrading.com/L209D.jpg

Joe Toey

[Iron Scout]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

My Goodness Joe,

Adding pics of an original to compare to a bad reproduction! Who ever heard of such a concept; you're to be commended. Tongue in cheek of course but bully!

Neill Rose
PLHA

[DaveGink]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

OK...here's my shot...

First Question: Is this supposed to be an Early War Federal Contract Cap Box, or of CS Manufacture?

There is some variance in stitching apparant in existing Federal Accoutrements, with the greatest range of 10-12 Stitches per inch (SPI)...there are of course accoutrements ranging with more/less stitches than this...

Confederate Manufactured Accoutrements tend to range across the board with very sloppy stitches at 4 SPI to very fine stitches 12 SPI

Which flap seems too large? The outer flap, inner flap, or the ear-tabs on the inner flap?

The majority of cap pouches I have examined had a place or remnant of a nipple pick holder within the box, that said...not every box I looked at had a nipple pick holder inside. Nevertheless, if it was advertised as having an inner nipple-pick holder...you deserve to have it.

The use of some glue on originals is apparant...although I've never found this apparant on the outside of the pouch...Typically what I can tell remains on originals is traces of hide/fish glue used to hold the wool down inside the pouch (even then, this glue has not been apparant on every box I've examined). Many of the pouches surviving today have what appear to be tack-holes from where it was held together on a wooden mold during various phases of construction.

A variety of dyes were used during the period including, ferrous-oxide "iron dye", oil-based dyes, and a variety of chemical/ink dyes...

I'm sure we'd all be curious as to who the vendor is...

Hope this helps,

Paul

Thanks Paul!

That is some great information.

Yes, It's supposed to be an early war Federal cap box.

And I was speaking of the outer flap. The photos posted by Toney (Thanks Toney) are of the shape and size I've seen in looking at early war originals ...where the flap starts to curve inward at a sharper angle about half-way down the pouch (you could see more of the pouch) and had a much shorter tab. Although I wasn't sure if this shaped outer flap was also used on those early pouches. It seems the belt loops may be too long as well.

I had a few PMs and the general consensus seems to be that it's very wrong. I was told that the pouch size and shape was wrong -- And that the thread used, and finish were wrong too.

All-in-all, it sounds like it's going back.

Many thanks to all who replied and PM'd!!!

Dave

[65thgainf]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

Was it a contract pouch ?

[Duvall Leatherwork]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

To offer a little info about cap boxes…

Sizes…
Unlike cartridge boxes, which do very in sized by ¼ or ½ inch due to the ammunition being stored in them, cap boxes have no reason to very in size. The size difference of original cap boxes can be attributed to the actual manufacturers…arsenal produced or contractor produced. To say that early war cap boxes are smaller in size is just not true! I have examined original cap boxes manufactured before, during, and after the civil war, and one thing is always the same…no two are exactly the same size. Even cap boxes that are the same model and date of manufacture can be different in size. This may be attributed to the size of the molds used to make the inside pouch. I don’t think an 1/8th inch difference in size can justify a cap box being early war or late war!

Patterns…
To the best of my current knowledge, the “Full Faced” or “Shield Front” cap box is probably the most noticeably different early war manufactured cap box. Its origins of manufacture date from pre-war until late 1862 at which time this pattern was replaced with the Pattern 1862 Federal Issue cap box, which was then replace with the Pattern 1864 Federal Issue cap box. Also, the “Shield Front” cap box was manufacture at the same time as the Pattern 1857 Federal Issue cap box and there are some differences in all of these cap boxes…the use of or lack of rivets, makers marks, vent picks, and the most noticeable feature, the outer flap. Typically, when searching for the correct pre or early war cap box, the “shield front” cap box is the federal pattern you may want to acquire. The lack of rivets is a fairly good, but not always, indicator of pre or early war manufacture.

Construction…
I have yet to examine or own an original Federal issue cap box which is poorly constructed! Super tight stitching (usually 8-11 stitches per inch), perfectly form molded inner pouch, and great flowing cuts and lines!! When looking at reproductions, construction is everything…bar none!

I could really care less about who made the cap box in the attached photos above, nor do I care to degrade the product or the business that sold it, but I want you to know what makes a great historically accurate reproduction...and what makes this cap box a poor reproduction! Poor construction, large machine stitching, cheap leather, and no vent pick loop….all I can say is you get what you pay for!!!

I have attached a few photos of some original cap boxes…note all the sizes, rivets or lack of, and patterns! I hope this has helped you out!

Thanks,
Nick Duvall
Duvall Leatherwork
314 Wyoming Ave
Kingston, PA 18704
(570)283-9297
duvall_leatherwork@hotmail.com

https://www.duvallleatherwork.com

Pattern 1857 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn Belt Loops)



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Pattern 1857 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops)



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Pattern 1862 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops)



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Federal Issue "Shield Front" cap box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops)



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Federal Issue Pattern 1864 Cap Box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops/No rain flap)

[DaveGink]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

Thanks Nick!! That is some excellent information. And I appreciate the photos!!

If nothing else, at least this experience has lead to greater knowledge.

Thanks again!
Dave

[DaveGink]

Re: Cap Pouch authenticity question

Nick,

In looking over those images, I noticed that some pouches do not have the horizontal line of stitching coming through the back (where the sheepskin is sewn inside). What is the significance of that, if anything?

Also, what is the difference between the first box on top (labeled Pattern 1857 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn Belt Loops) and the 1850 pattern box of the same style? Are they basically the same pattern?

Thanks!!
Dave