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  • #61
    Re: Using Weapon Sights

    Hi,

    Opinions about the quality of American marksmanship during the war, not surprisingly, varied. In any event, the level of "marksmanship practice" in the Federal or Confederate armies was generally not comparable to what was conducted in Europe (most notably Prussia which, as I recall, required troops to fire at least 50 rounds in formal target practice per annum).

    Nevertheless, as I stated, opinions varied. The following item extracted from the 29 August 1863 "United States Army and Navy Journal" may be of some interest.

    WASTE OF AMMUNITION.‎

    The following is extracted from a recently published book of campaign sketches in ‎Virginia and Maryland, by Captain GEORGE F. NOYES:‎

    ‎[Note: Actual title of the work is: Noyes, George F. (1824-1868). The Bivouac and the ‎Battlefield, or, Campaign sketches in Virginia and Maryland. New York: Harper & Bros, ‎‎1863. xi, 13-339p. This is available in microform.]‎

    The great disproportion in our battles between the number of ball cartridges discharged ‎and the number of killed and wounded was due mainly to the want of presence of mind in our ‎raw troops; but the very limited investigation I have been enabled to make has convinced me that ‎our troops take much better aim, and consequently waste far less ammunition than is usual in ‎European warfare.‎
    During the wars of the French Revolution and of the Empire—NAPOLEON’S wars—‎according to GASSENDI, a French general of artillery, the infantry fired 3000 cartridges for ‎every enemy killed or wounded. PIOBERT admits the same thing. DECKER, a Prussian ‎general, and one of the best military writers in German, estimates that not less than 10,000 ‎cartridges are burned for every enemy killed or wounded.‎
    At the battle of Vittoria the British are supposed to have killed or wounded one of the ‎enemy for every 800 balls fired. An English officer states that at the battle of Cherubusco the ‎Mexicans killed or wounded an American for every 800 balls fired, and that the Americans killed ‎or wounded a Mexican for every 125 balls fired.‎
    The heroic ROSECRANS, in his account of the bloodily contested battle of ‎Murfreesboro, declares, “ Of 14,560 rebels struck by our missiles, it is estimated that 20,000 ‎rounds of artillery hit 728 men, and 200,000 rounds of musketry hit 13,833 men, averaging 27 ‎cannon shots to hit one man, and 145 musket shots to hit one man.‎
    In the battle of Gainesville there could not have been expended more than 100,000 ‎cartridges, and the enemy admit[s] a loss of more than 1000 men, thus averaging 100 musket ‎shots to each of the rebel killed or wounded. Of course all such statements only approximate the ‎actual ratio, but it is sufficiently clear that great as is the waste of ammunition by our army, it is ‎not only equalled, but excelled by those [armies] of Europe.‎
    One trouble is that our men going into battle, are weighed down, overloaded with ‎ammunition, having to stuff their pockets as well as their cartridge-boxes with the sixty or eighty ‎rounds ordered. Of course very much of this is thrown away and wasted; but this is only a ‎trifling evil compared with the encouragement thus given to the too prevalent idea among the ‎men that he who fires the greatest number of rounds in battle is the best soldier. I have heard ‎men boasting of their achievements in this regard, and the result of such an idea is a hurried ‎loading and discharge without any regard to aim; a wasting upon trees and foliage of ammunition ‎which, if used at all, should be used so as to defeat the enemy. I was struck with a remark ‎made by a rebel prisoner to his captors, “We never carry more than forty rounds into ‎action, and usually expend about ten.‎
    ‎“There is altogether too much of this wild, reckless firing, the men discharging their ‎pieces before bringing them fairly down to a level, and utterly regardless of taking aim. Of ‎course, there are periods when heavy, rapid, and continuous volleys are necessary; still it would ‎be well if every man could be drilled as a sharpshooter, taught to shoot slowly, and always take ‎aim, either at the enemy or his supposed locality.‎
    ‎“In the five battles of the late Italian campaign, it was estimated that about 8 per cent of ‎the French and Sardinians, and 10 ˝ per cent of their enemies, the Austrians, were either killed ‎or wounded. In the battles spoken of in these sketches our loss was not far from 10 per cent of ‎the whole numbers engaged, while certain divisions and brigades lost one-third their number; ‎and in the fearfully bloody fight at Gainesville two of our regiments lost more than one-third of ‎their number engaged, as also did the 4th brigade
    ‎“The proportion between the killed and wounded is about as 1 to 5, and of the wounded ‎about 1 in 10 never recovers. If this be even approximative to the truth, it certainly robs war of ‎some of its presumed fatality. As I have before remarked, the escape of so large a majority of ‎the men, amid such storms of bullets sweeping and yelling around their ears, has always been ‎the great mystery of war.”‎

    Regards,

    Mark Jaeger
    Last edited by markj; 06-11-2004, 10:49 AM.
    Regards,

    Mark Jaeger

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Using Weapon Sights

      Mark thanks for the great post
      I am, etc.
      Thomas Gingras
      Awkward Squad Mess
      Columbia Rifles
      Honorary SRR "Yankee"

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Using Weapon Sights

        Originally posted by MassVOL
        Mark thanks for the great post
        Hi Thomas,

        Glad you enjoyed it. I can probably dig up more if need be. It may be of interest to you that Wm. Conant Church, the editor of the "Army and Navy Journal," eventually helped found the National Rifle Association in 1871 based, in large part, on his wartime observations about the poor quality of military marksmanship. Another prominent founding member of the NRA, and its third president, was Brevet Major General Alexander Shaler who served in the 7th NYSM, 65th New York, a variety of other high-profile assignments during the war, as well as commanded the post-war 1st Division of the National Guard, State of New York (NGSNY).

        Regards,

        Mark Jaeger
        Regards,

        Mark Jaeger

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Using Weapon Sights

          When it comes to sighting for me, I just pass the whole hornets nest and use my smoothy that doesn't have a rear sight.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Lane's Brigade sharpshooter badges

            Originally posted by privstull
            Hello pards,

            Does anyone know what the sharpshooters badges looked like in Lane's Brigade and if so the deminsions of them? My unit and I need to have badges similar to the original ones for an upcoming event but do not know what they look like. We have documentation that there were badges but nothing telling what they looked like, what they were made out of, and what the deminsions were. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
            I have not seen any physical evidence of the badges worn by Maj. Wooten's corps of sharpshooters. I have several post war articles written by Lane. I also have some AARs written by Maj. Wooten. They were located in the Lane papers, but nothing regarding their badges. He retired to Camden, SC prior to his death.

            There is one example worn by Sgt. Wise of the 2nd Maryland Inf. It is I belive located in the Maryland Hostorical Society. It is of an orange or red color Quadrafoil with pointed ends and looks to be made of felt. As noted in one of the other posts, there is a letter reference by Gen. MacRae in his brother's papers at Duke University. They evedently wore gold color crosses on their sleeve as well as stitched the names of the battles they were in on their jackets. Another reference to Gregg's SC brigade was a diagonal red slash on their sleeve. My opinion is that corps of sharpshooter's badge design would be developed on the brigade level and could vary.

            I have a copy of Maj. Eugene Blackford's (comdg. Rode's Brigade Sharpshooters) diary and have not come across anything regarding badges, although some very interesting uses of the bugle.

            Interestingly enough the painting by Winslow Homer, Prisoners from the Front, has a young officer on there with a black cross on his sleeve. I am of the opinion this offcer is a representation of a member of a brigade corps of sharpshooters. Winslow Homer seemed to have some degree of facination with sharpshooters during the Civil War. I hope you find this helpful, but in regard to the design of Lane's Corps of Sharpshooters badges your guess is as good as mine. In my opinion if I were you I would design a badge based on all physical evidence of other brigades and come up with your own design to represent Lane's Brigade sharpshooters. What your trying to do is represent the corps of sharpshooters, so some sort of badge would serve to represent that corps' badge and can serve as a great living history conversational piece to the public.

            Rich Saathoff
            hardeeflag@yahoo.com
            Rich Saathoff
            [email]hardeeflag@yahoo.com[/email]

            [URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:6;&version=9;"]John 14:6[/URL]
            [URL=http://greens-cavalry-corps.blogspot.com/]Green's Texas Cavalry Corps[/URL]
            [URL=http://www.arizonabattalion.com/]The Arizona Battalion[/URL]

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Using Weapon Sights

              Here's another item to throw into the mix. I found this just the other day while reviewing the microfilmed diary of Adjutant (1st Lt) Hugh Gallagher, 35th (1st Irish) Indiana Volunteer Infantry at the Indiana Historical Society (IHS Microfilm F91):

              April 7 1864 Monday

              Agreeable to orders, as the day progressed, had target practice outside of the picket lines. The boys made good shooting for the first effort.
              I tried a shot and hit the mark at 150 yds. Drawed [sic] 12,000 rounds EB [Elongated Ball] Cartridges for concentrations of the practice. The weather is warm with indications of rain.

              [end quote]

              I have no immediate idea from what level the "orders" for target practice descended but organized target practice was certainly being done at the regimental level just prior to the Atlanta Campaign. I don't have the precise strength reports for the 35th IVI in April 1864 but I'd guess the effective numbers were around 500. If this was the case, then each "rifle" was issued about 30 rounds or so strictly for such activities.

              Regards,

              Mark Jaeger
              Regards,

              Mark Jaeger

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Using Weapon Sights

                Kind of a hashed out thread, but a few things seem to be of interest for arguments consideration regarding the military cultural psyche of the era.

                For the era, it might be observed that it was more important for gentleman on the field to be disciplined in drill and maneuver. If they stayed together, smartly obeyed orders, maneuvered tightly on the field, this might have had a greater effect than accurate fire (when paired against an equally poorly shooting foe). Drill Drill Drill... If one can exploit poor formations, even with marginal fire, it may out weigh the most accurate fire from a marginally drilled body of troops.

                The notion of intensive marksmanship fire was new. Very new. Considering the recent advent of mass-produced rifled-muskets, etc. Somewhere in this post someone mentioned a former Marine in their ranks who likes to talk them through the steps of firing. This is interesting. Being a Marine myself, I admit that every time a squeeze a trigger, through second nature I think, "sight alignment, breath, relax, aim, squeeze...” It works very well with an M16 or an M'61 (if you'll pardon the word play). But, it seems counter to the era. For those few times I make an event, I make a mental effort to simply look down the barrel, think, "I hope I hit him" and squeeze the trigger. It would have been a significantly great minority of troops in the era who would be thinking "ok, judge the wind from the heat mirage, I better aim to the left to accommodate this stiff cross wind I can see by the smoke drifting...” That gives great credit to assume the average volunteer understood heat mirage. It just seems evident that the average guy would be thinking as he looks down the barrel "I hope I hit him before he hits me" BANG. This transcends time. Even today, on the rifle range, with no one shooting back, there is always some jack ass who goes from the 200 yard line to the 300 yard line, shoots a string of fire, wonders why he shot so low, and then gets chewed out by his range coach because he didn't remember to raise his rear sight to 300 yards...

                Anyway, just something to think about.
                Ben Grant

                Founder and sole member of the Funnel Cake Mess

                Comment


                • #68
                  Target Practice

                  I'd like to throw in a few observations here. Some come from a book which I believe is one of the great references but its cartoon-like drawings turn some people off, and fool others into thinking that there's no good information in it. The book is called Arms and Ammunition of the Civil War, by Jack Coggins. Check it out some time.

                  Anyway, a couple of points.

                  1. Target practice was given at least lip service during the Civil War. Because The Manual of Target Practice was one of 5 books issued to every commissioned officer. Kautz's The Company Clerk confirms this. By the way, the other 4 were Tactics, Regulations, Bayonet Drill, and Outpost Duty.

                  The Target Practice manual contains plans and sketches for setting up ranges to practice marksmanship.

                  2. Every regiment had a stadia, a device for estimating range. According to the manual, I believe the first sergeant carried it.

                  3. The manual states that a silver stadia was to be given to the best shot in the regiment, and that this device was to be worn on the coat at dress parades. (Note: I've seen some of these devices, so I know they existed.)

                  4. Basic Civil War tactics demonstrated knowledge of range estimating and considerations of ballistics. Coggins states that the weapons of the time fired a heavy projectile at a relatively slow muzzle velocity. This means that the drop of the projectile occurred relatively rapidly, especially when compared with modern weapons. Basically speaking, and to repeat what Curt said earlier, if you sighted your weapon at 100 yards at a man who was actually 300 yards away, your shot would hit the ground. And if you sighted your musket properly at a man who was 300 yards away, your shot would actually go over the head of a man 100 yards away. So wherever possible, the distance between the first line of men and the second was set on purpose to nullify the effects of inaccurate distance estimation by Civil War soldiers. A smart officer spaced his lines so that a properly aimed shot at the first line, if it missed its target, would hit the ground before it got to the second line. (Note: one of the tragedies of the 3rd day at Gettysburg was that the reserve line of the Union army took horrific casualties because it was placed on the back side of the ridge, and the slope of the ridge perfectly compensated for the over-shooting of the Confederate artillery. Had the ground been level, the missed shots would have hit the ground before hitting the second line.)

                  I believe that the commanders and the men knew what they were doing, and that practice was held where practical. Again, it's one of those things that in the beginning of the war, when a few days of sharp battle was followed by weeks of re-fitting, time was available for items like this. As the war progressed to daily combat and skirmishing, and the armies never backed away from each other, these things had a lower preference.
                  Cordially,

                  Bob Sullivan
                  Elverson, PA

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Using Weapon Sights

                    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they didn't know what they were doing at all. I'm just trying to find a general period norm for the common soldier verses one extremem or the other (not everyone just closed their eyes and squeezed the trigger, nor did they all have the capaity of training or coolness under fire to calmly judge distance, wind, elevation, etc.).

                    This is a redundant post from another thread here, but this is a very interesting article regarding the English training on the Enfield.



                    Does it apply to boys from Georiga or Indiana? Nope. But it at least gives some insight to state of thinking of the day. But these are British Regulars I imagine. I'd like to find a reference articel like this written about the US Regulars. One must exist in some archive...
                    Ben Grant

                    Founder and sole member of the Funnel Cake Mess

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Using Weapon Sights

                      I'm sure that a lot of us knew this fact at one time, but may have forgotten: The National Rifle Assoication was formed by former Union Army officers because they observed very poor marksmanship during the War and they wanted to encourage rifle training.
                      Gil Davis Tercenio

                      "A man with a rifle is a citizen; a man without one is merely a subject." - the late Mark Horton, Captain of Co G, 28th Ala Inf CSA, a real hero

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Using Weapon Sights

                        Heres my tow cents,

                        At Cedar creek this past october I fell in with the sharpshooters. At the event, before actually being engaged we were laid down by our captain to wait for the command to go in. At this time my captain pulled out a brass range finder. He found the range and ordered the company to adjust our sights accordingly. This really added something to the event for me. I like many others here had never thought of it. I recommend this anytime the scenario deems fit.

                        -Philip Brown

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Using Weapon Sights

                          Gents,
                          While reading on the technicalities of aiming and rounds expended per casualty, I think one important perspective is being overlooked. Thad Dolzall hit on it a little bit, but there has been some interesting research on how the psychological impact of killing affects casualty rates. A gentleman named Lt. Col. Grossman has a book out called "On Killing." I would highly reccomend it to everyone in this hobby. The 1st of three sections in the book deals with military matters, and how over the years, the military has changed its training from pure marksmanship to the modern army "pop up" course. He submits that this change occured because it changes the shooting action to an instinctual, rather then conscious reaction. He's got lots of historical data to support his conclusions, and I wish I had the book in front of me to quote, but he shows through several different wars how only a small percentage of men were involved in the actual killing through small arms fire. He uses hundreds of personal accounts of men who weren't cowards, but often found the mental anguish of taking life to be insurmountable. He's got some interesting thoughts on crew-served weapons, (cannons in our case), proximity and how it relates, and "posturing." I'd reccomend it to everyone.
                          Kind Regards,
                          Andrew Jerram

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Using Weapon Sights

                            As far as being asked to use sights for an event, I'm pretty sure that at Payne's Farm my company was told to adjust sights for a particular range. I can't remember exactly what the range was.....perhaps 250 yards or so, that kinda sticks in my mind. Maybe the commanders that were there or some of the other rank and file can recall that order. Point being though, I've only ever been ordered to do that but that single time in seven years of reenacting.

                            Neil Randolph
                            1st WV

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Using Weapon Sights

                              Use a smoothbore and you won't need to bother!
                              John Turvey
                              69th NYSV CO. A
                              Irish Brigade

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Using Weapon Sights

                                I personally do and i do change my elevation when they are far enough away, I also have never heard any command to do so.
                                -Tim Harrold

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