Reproduction Civilian Arms

[C.R. Henderson]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

So is there anyone out there selling shotgun kits that are worth doing?

[tmdreb]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

If you're interested in a good shotgun, I'd ignore the repros and get you an original in decent shape and have it checked out by a gunsmith before using it. The Italian repro shotguns share the same shortcomings as their military counterparts, namely that they're too heavy and chunky. Thankfully, original shotguns are plentiful and cost relatively the same as a repro, if not less.

Paul, I'm guessing Mr. Hern has some inside knowledge about the musket in the Mansfield museum he's going to share with us.

Note in this well-used image that there is indeed a sporterized musket sitting next to John Burns. While it may be a photographer's prop of some kind, obviously this modification was not done postwar, as the image was taken while Burns was recovering from the wounds he took at Gettysburg, unless I my information is incorrect.

[C.R. Henderson]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

"If you're interested in a good shotgun, I'd ignore the repros and get you an original in decent shape and have it checked out by a gunsmith before using it. The Italian repro shotguns share the same shortcomings as their military counterparts, namely that they're too heavy and chunky. Thankfully, original shotguns are plentiful and cost relatively the same as a repro, if not less." Originally posted by Phil Graf.


Thanks, Phil. I've been doing quite a bit of research over the past couple of days and I figured that was the case. You're right, the originals in good or very good condition are comparable to an assembled kit or even some repro customs. Now it's a decision between buying a new 1842 w/mods or a Belgian made double barrel shotgun! So many wonderful guns, so little money!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

Hallo!

"Anothere source for civilian arm is "The Possible Shop" They have many of the PA, TN, NC, KY, and Hawken repro and hand made rifles in many calibers."

I might not have found the Possible Shop's menu for historically faithful custom-built rifles, but the majority of their on-line page offerings appear to be just the type of imported reproduction Italian and Spanish guns I was speaking AGAINST. Such as the
pseudo "Hawken," "Ohio," or "Pennsylvania" rifles popular among the ML hunting, buckskining, and rendezvous community that bear only minor or superficial faithfulness or accuracy to the original 19th and 18th century arms.

"Track of the Wolf" is a possibile source but, IMHO, one needs to be prepared in two ways:

1. The company charges a 33% mark-up "commission" for their services in listing guns on-line. Sellers wanting/needing the full market value wil see their pieces listed at that price PLUS 1/3- which in many instances "inflate" the price for the convenience of being able to buy it on-line. This is particularly true of used reproduction Italian arms, which often see the price way over the NIB (New, In the Box) prices

2. One needs to bring their own research and documentation with them, and be the educated customer and informed consumer as TRACK sells to a wide customer-base from the "authentic" down through the History-Light down through the Imagination/Fantasy folks.

Over the years, I have bought and sold several guns from TRACK.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[WestTN_reb]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

Personally, I don't much care for Track's prices. If you want a gun custom built from the floor up, custom fitted to the shooter, for a much more reasonable price, check out Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading.

[23rdIllinoisIrish]

Re: Repro Civilian Arms

Thanks to everyone for the information and suggestions! Has anyone had experience with either Dixie Gun Work's or Track of the Wolf's kits? Any thoughts? Again, thanks to everyone for your contributions.

M. Shomaker

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Repro Civilian Arms

Thanks to everyone for the information and suggestions! Has anyone had experience with either Dixie Gun Work's or Track of the Wolf's kits? Any thoughts? Again, thanks to everyone for your contributions.

M. Shomaker

I sent you a private message concerning this.

Do you have any idea what you need? Give us a clue what your thoughts are.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize...

If a business' offerings appear to be just the type of imported reproduction Italian and Spanish guns I was speaking AGAINST, then the kits of the same will be "historically challenged" as well and NOT a viable option.

IF one has researched and documented what is an appropriate "civilian" rifle" or "shotgun" of the CW Era, for the specifics of a time/place/impression-....up-to-a-point, a collection of component parts can be selected from say TRACK to build a custom piece.
The operative warning here is that that route normally involves a greater skill/experience set and tool set than the Everyday Joe has to bring to the work bench. Collections of component parts are not the same as a "kit" that is 98% finished, "in the white," that just requires disaasembling, polishing of metal and sanding and finishing of wood, and reassembly.

Curt

[guad42]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

I would have to agree with Curt on Track of the Wolf. Having lived in the Southwest for many years, these are just the type of guns found in local collections that made their way from the South or midwest in the early and mid century.

Though the prices are high, they are reasonable when measured against other custom builders who won't even look at you for less that 5,000.00. (no offense custom builders, you do fine work).

Before CW, I dabbled quite a bit in Civilian and Southwestern collecting and study when it came to weapons. The Spanish and Italians simply do not supply the type of weapons common among civilians. They are mostly stylized (think Redford in Jeremiah Johnson) and imagined, rather than direct copies of originals. The kits are much the same, unless you go the distance and do significant work on it.

IMHO - If you do not have the $$$$ for a custom built or semi-custom built gun, or a serviceable original, and do not want to carry one of myriad "Hawkens" type guns (not very authentic) as provided by the Italians, then you could do worse than a repro M1841 Percussion Rifle. The "Mississippi" was somewhat common West of the Miss (not nearly as so in the south and east as above and previously mentioned arms). That is if you want to take the economical and easy way out.

Sam Dolan

[fahtz]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

I will agree with you on the Mississippi Rifle being a good option for a civilian arm. However, Knowing what the impression the lad is going for (Missouri State Guard 1861 Rural Missouri) I would shy away from the now very common in the ranks 1840's musket. It is a documented fact that these boys had shotguns, squirrel rifles, early smoothbores, and some... SOME 41-42 patterns. However for ealry conflicts in Missouri the safest choice for a military style weapon would be a m16 or m22. The armory at St Louis still had hords of the 42 pattern, and were not lettign them out, they also had 55 rifles, and 61's. Hope this throws some mud in the water! I would like to echo the comments on the original pattern shotguns. They can not be beat. Often one off, no one has the same ole shotgun. This impression is all about being an individual.

[guad42]

Re: Repo Civilian Arms

Well put. I believe there are some arms at the museum at Wilson's Creek. I remember seeing an M1816 or 22 there and perhaps some original civilian arms, but it has been a few years.

-Sam Dolan

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Reproduction Civilian Arms

Richmond Dispatch.
Tuesday morning...June 18, 1861.

Something more about arms.

We are glad to see that in the views we have expressed on this subject we have the concurrence of our able contemporary, the Richmond Enquirer. That journal expresses the opinion that in the rural districts every house possesses arms enough for its own defence a gun for every third male, or about 950,000 rifles and shot-guns, the private property of the Southern population. That paper says:

"Knowing this to be the case, we are disposed to be a little incredulous when we hear it said that certain localities could send additional companies into the field, if it were not for the impossibility of obtaining suitable arms. No doubt every company organized would like to have the best arms in use; but when this is unattainable, it ought not to follow that the country should be left undefended. It is true that the rifled musket can do execution with some precision at the distance of five hundred yards, and that the shot-gun at the same distance would do none. But, then, is it to be supposed that Virginians are going to stand stilt and be shot down, at their own doors, by Yankee invaders? There is a very simple mode of shortening the distance. At fifty yards, each barrel loaded with fifteen buckshot, the gun, which was harmless at a long distance, fires I whole broadside at every discharge. Any one of the thirty buckshot will die a man; and if aimed low, a little above the knee, the double but place may knock down a half dozen Yankees at every fire, white the Minnie ball can only hit our, and even that is improbable at a short distance.--So much for the heavy double-barrel shot-gun. Then there is the hunter a ride, which will do execution, in the hands of a Southern marksman, one hundred and fifty yards.--These will do for the fences, rocks, and trees, Daniel Boone or Indian fashion, until the shot gun can get within killing range."

Even if there were not private arms enough, we could fight with slings, bows and arrows, reap- hooks, tomahawks, scythes, carving knives, anything knives, anything defence of hearth-stones and little ones. As we have before said, the most destructive battles in the world occurred before the invention of gunpowder. It is not the weapon as much as the man who used it. A people, whose farms are threatened with confiscation and whose hearth-stones with pollution, will scarcely wait for improved arms to defend themselves. If a robber attacks your house at night, you will not send to a neighbors a quarter of a mile off, for a Minnie musket, if you have in your house an old horse pistol, an axe, or a hatchet. One of the best weapons for warfare, and which is used on board all our ships-of-war, is the pike. This is employed for the hardest part of the fight — that is, when the crew of one ship attempts to board the other. These pikes can be readily manufactured. A long hunter's rifle is excellent; so are double-barrel shot guns; so is anything that will hurt or kill, provided always that it is in the hands of a man.

[mslaird]

Re: Reproduction Civilian Arms

I have a couple of questions about civilian firearms as well. Would it be more likely for the rifles or fowling pieces to be flintlock rather than percussion? Also wouldn't most families that would want an all-purpose firearm for procuring additional subsistance to use a flintlock smoothbore instead of even a rifled arm? Last, other than the sights being a bit wrong, what about the Lyman plains rifles? I know that they are of the imported variety but from what I have seen of original firearms of the type, the Lymans appear to look more like the originals than the other imports that I have seen. I too am looking at creating an early war MSG impression, pre-Wilson's Creek-Wilson's Creek. I have been wondering myself about the civilian arm question. Thanks to all who have posted, it has been an education and I appreciate it.

[ohpkirk]

Re: Reproduction Civilian Arms

In the 'frontier' regions, flintlocks would have been more prevalent, at least in my experience. I have found documentation that citizens in this part of Texas were still using flintlock long arms well into the 1880's due to the lack of percussion caps. It was easy to find flint (very plentiful here) and knap it properly.

As for your question about an all purpose arm, there was such a long arm: the combination gun. Just like the modern combo guns, these long arms were both rifles and shot guns. The one that I am going to purchase is an original from the early 1850's with the barrels stacked/over-under .

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Reproduction Civilian Arms

This is a very broad topic and homework is required. Here is a good place to start; http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/stor...ry.asp?catid=2

http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/store/shop/category.asp?catid=3