Blue Pants

[shillcw]

I was reading in "CivilWar Historian magazine" about Confederate soldiers wearing kersy blue pants. I was wondering what you thought of this and how come we don't wear kersy blue more often if is true.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Blue Pants

Jim,

This argument comes up every few months, and where documented, the CS portion of the material culture guidelines encourage such trousers.

[Justin Runyon]

Re: Blue Pants

I think to simplify an answer to your question, it goes something like this.

In the case that we are talking about documented CS trousers that just happen to be made out of sky kersey: Bringing up this a lot tends to make some elements of the hobby think that to complete your CS impression, and save a few bucks, all one needs to do is whip out your Fed. Issue trousers out of the closet and your good to go. This is clearly not the case as we are talking about the pattern portion of that age old triad that is mentioned from time to time.

In the event that we are talking about documented CS use of Fed. trousers: Well, as Chas. alluded to above, on the rare occasion that that is documented to the scenario, we have done it.

Hope this helps.

[Coatsy]

Re: Blue Pants

To add to what Charles said, it all depends on what a specific unit was wearing at the time in which you are portraying.

Let us use your example of blue kersey for Confederates. At the Chickamauga LH this past September the ANV contingient had many men wearing the blue kersey pants that you mentioned. This was because there were accounts of the time period that noted this. Kershaw's men had picked up new gear on the over the mountains to reinforce Bragg.

From the WIG Chickamauga event guidelines on ANV trousers

Trousers:
1). “Richmond Depot” trousers constructed of royal blue kersey material. There are several surviving trousers in the Museum of the Confederacy constructed from light blue kersey material. The Pender, Goodwin, H(?) Redwood, and Brooke trousers are examples.
2). “Richmond Depot” trousers constructed from blue-grey kersey material.
3). “Richmond Depot” trousers constructed from jean.
**- No Federal trousers please.

Hawt Hawt web linkage for more reading (which I would suggest, tis good stuff mon!):

http://www.westernindependentgrays.org/chick2007/anv_guidelines.htm

As you can see some very nice folks went over the records and accounts to get this detailed information about the uniforms.

All of this blather is to hopefully reinforce the point that "just having" a certain type of gear just because in Northern Georgia in the fall of 1863 some guys had it is not the prime basis for getting gear. From what I've seen there is no right or wrong answer for a kit that covers the entire war. It would be nice to just have "one" kit, but alas on the authentic side of the hobby you are probably going to need different "kits" to get the impression correct as you possibley can.

And I am not telling you to go out and buy or refrain from buying the said blue kersey trousers that you mentioned.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Blue Pants

Herb & Justin,

This brings up a side issue that isn't always readily visible to the casual observer, and that is the long lead time generally necessary for event selection, and the manufacturing of materials (both raw and finished goods) to go into the time honored "bulk buy" or "bully buy" process.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blue Pants

New York Herald
Oct 1/62 Sharpsburg

....When the aid converted with Pryor, it came out, for the first time to our knowledge, that the flag of truce had emanated from our side. In the meantime, however, General Thomas Francis Meagher was sent by General Hancock to represent the Union army in the matter. The Union and rebel Generals — who, by the way, are old acquaintances — met on the neutral ground and had quite an interesting conversation. General Pryor was dressed in the homilies manner, with blue pants, gray shirt and a loose homespun coat, without the least to indicate his rank as a General. General Meagher, on the contrary, was attired in appropriate uniform, of such texture and finish as his aristocratic tastes would naturally lead him to display. There was quite a contrast in the matter of costume between the Generals.

October 14, 1862 Richmond Dispatch

Capt. H. G. Young, who was captured by some of the 30th Va cavalry, Col. Chamblien, near Bull Run, and brought to Richmond, has returned to Washington, and gives his statement of affairs in the "rebel capital" as follows, in a dispatch dated from Washington: ……. The rebel troops are rapidly resolving their new uniforms. consisting of dark gray woolen jackets and light blue pants, They say there is no lack of arms and that they have more cannon than can be used. The general impression among them is that the war will not end until the expiration of President Lincoln's term of office. Everybody, however, is sick of hostilities, and the troops desire to return to their homes; yet one constantly hears the remark, "You may exterminate us, but you cannot subjugate us."

Culpepper Observer
June 28/62

Ten Dollars reward will be paid for the apprehension of Woodman, a deserter from my company. He said Woodman is five feet ten inches high; light, short hair; complexion light, freckled face; looks in feeble health, voice very weak; stoops in shoulders. Had on when he left camp a pair of sky-blue pants, gray jacket, and a white slouch hat.

Capt. Wm. J. Dabney,
Comd'g Sledge Battery, Friend's farm.


New York Times November 4 /61

The firing from the right had now nearly ceased, only an occasional stray shot from persons posted in the trees to pick off the officers. At this juncture, a person, wearing a gray jacket and blue pants appeared, riding a dark brown horse, and beckoned with his hand to the Union forces, saying, "We are friends; come this way, boys." Firing instantly ceased for two minutes, Gen. Baker and the Assistant Adjutant General saying, "Cease firing; you are shooting your own men." The next moment Gen. Baker said, "Soldiers, there is Johnston on the left; give them a volley."
By this time the enemy had flanked us on the left. The Adjutant General inquired "Who are you?" addressing his inquiry to the flanking party. He was answered, "We are Confederates, you Yankee sons of bitches." This confusion arose from the fact that Gen. Baker had posted Company A as a skirmishing party on the left. The order was then given to charge, and the Unionists pressed into the woods on the left, but they met an overpowering force and fell back.
A very tall man now stepped from behind a tree, and, with a revolver fired at General Baker within five feet of his person. Six discharges were made, and nearly all the balls entered the General's body. He fell on his back, partly against a tree, and died instantly. The rebel who had shot the General then sprang forward, and was in the act of taking his body, or stripping off his sword, when Capt. Bieral ran forward, placed his revolver at his ear, and shot him dead.”

Richmond Dispatch
May 19,1864

--For some time back large lots of candles, soap, pins, tape, and other valuables, have been stolen from the C. S. Naval Storehouse, on the corner of Cary and 11th streets. Having reason to suspect the locality in which some of it had been carried, search warrants were obtained against Mrs. Rosanna Ormsby and Mary Riley, occupying adjoining tenements in "Solitude," on Cary, between 7th and 8th streets, and placed in the hands of officers Perrin and Morris for execution. The parties were before the Mayor yesterday morning. At the house of Mrs. Ormsby were found a pair of Confederate blue pants, several papers of pins, and a number of bars of soap, which were recognized by D. D. Osborn, Clerk and Assistant Paymaster of the Navy, as belonging to the Government, and had been stolen from the Navy Department

Richmond Dispatch June 5/61

The Confederate Army uniform.

--Mr. E. Cain, military tailor, of New Orleans, whose known experience in his line of business entirely qualified him to advise upon the subject was summoned to Montgomery by the Quartermaster General, for the purpose of assisting in the selection of an appropriate dress for our army. His suggestions were adopted by the department, and the following described style will be worn:
……”Pantaloons.--Of sky blue cloth, made full in the leg, and trimmed according to corps — with blue for infantry, red for artillery, and yellow for cavalry. No other distinction.”……

[Slouch]

Re: Blue Pants

just remember this...just because they are sky blue doesnt mean that they are Federal trousers! Sky blue kersey was being purchased and received through the blockade. It became a problem in 1864 when SB trousers were issued with BG kersey jackets, as the johnnies looked like Feds.

Certainly, the use of Federal trousers by CS troops is appropriate for a few units/events, but dont go the "took em off a dead yank" route. In the east, huge quantities of stores were captured in 1862 at places like Winchester, Strasburg, 2nd Manassas, and Harpers Ferry. It is said that AP Hill's men were confused as federals late in the day at Sharpsburg, allowing them to advance on the Federal line without taking fire for some time. Since AP Hill was left at Harpers ferry to parole prisoners, they very well could have been wearing some Federal clothing.

It is well documented that Longstreets Corps was issued SB trousers in Richmond on their way to TN.

FYI, Charlie Childs has "overdyed" SB kersey, which has a slightly different look than standard SB. It is based on some original SB Confederate trousers , I believe. It would be very col to have a pair of CS trousers made from this.

[CSchneider]

Re: Blue Pants

If anybody is interested in making a pair of blue Confederate trousers, grab some of that C.S. kersey from Childs. A few of us worked with Charlie to try and get the color matched to one of the existing pairs in the Museum of the Confederacy. Its not bright electric blue like many pairs of fine broadcloth officers' trousers, but a nice royal blue that's a very close match to the material used on enlisted garments. I'm very happy with the way it came out.

-Craig Schneider

[vamick]

Re: Blue Pants

Its not bright electric blue like many pairs of fine broadcloth officers' trousers, but a nice royal blue that's a very close match to the material used on enlisted garments. I'm very happy with the way it came out.

-Craig Schneider

Ive also heard this confederate sky blue called "Saxon Blue" by at least one maker I almost had a pair but my pard beat me to em...the color is at least a shade different than fed sky blue a tiny bit 'blue-er' for want of a better discription *edit* I see now you said 'Royal blue' as in 'navy'? this Saxon was much lighter than that

[CSchneider]

Re: Blue Pants

Nope, royal blue as in mediumish blue, as in quite similar to lapis and ultramarine.

Its similar to the "saxon" blue that was offered, just made of kersey as per the trousers in the MOC and elsewhere.

-Craig Schneider

[PanzerJager]

Re: Blue Pants

I got some of the fabric Charlie made up from Craig's research earlier this year and the color compares very favorably to a pair of original trousers I viewed in the North Carolina state museum. This weekend I can take some photos side by side of Charlie’s sky blue next to the run Craig had made up of the C.S Kersey if anyone is interested.

Regards,

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Blue Pants

Ulysses S. Grant, Chapter 41: Chattanooga - On the Picket Line, Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant

"The most friendly relations seemed to exist between the pickets of the two armies. At one place there was a tree which had fallen across the stream, and which was used by the soldiers of both armies in drawing water for their camps. General Longstreet's corps was stationed there at the time, and wore blue of a little different shade from our uniform. Seeing a soldier in blue on this log, I rode up to him, commenced conversing with him, and asked whose corps he belonged to. He was very polite, and, touching his hat to me, said he belonged to General Longstreet's corps. I asked him a few questions--but not with a view of gaining any particular information--all of which he answered, and I rode off."