Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

[lukegilly13]

What constitutes a good set of Leathers? Yes I know...the ones that came from approved venders or ones copied from originials. That's not exactly what I mean. I mean this...at events I almost never see two sets that look exactly alike. All advice points to avoiding the "pakistani junk". The "good stuff" ranges from $200 to $65 for a good cartridge box. I don't want to pay for the name of the maker...i want to pay for some good leathers. My primary portrayal is confederate 37th VA (ANV)...when I do yank, it's Army of the Cumberland, usually later war. I carry a '61 Springfield (of course .58) as that is what my ggggrandfather carried in the war. Yes, I know, very eary confederate that is unlikely but it's a personal centiment and i can't afford a '42 or an enfield just yet. I have a "russet" leather set (won't mention the maker :o:o that my wife bought from a no-no sutler) and i'm hoping to not get devorced for getting rid of them. I also have a black (supposed federal set i've had for 10 years that I bought used from a reenactor who was retiring...no idea where they come from). What I want is an authentic set that I can use for both on the tier 1 level. Is there a "do-all" here or does a person HAVE to invest in several sets? Comments???

[Chad Wrinn]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Hey,
The cheapest (but still authentic) you can get is from Missouri Boot and Shoe. I have bought many things from him and it is the best work I have seen. He offers sets that are around $240 but you can go with the bare necessities and just get a cap box, cartridge box and bayonet scabbard. (you can get a cheaper belt from me)
Hope this helps,

[Jam3853]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

From what I am to understand the approved sutlers use a 8 oz leather and the no no's use a 10 oz which is much thicker of a leather





Justin Meinert

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Hallo!

"What constitutes a good set of Leathers? Yes I know...the ones that came from approved venders or ones copied from originials."

I am not sure, exactly, what you are asking.. other than perhaps "Who makes authenitc accoutrements for the lowest price?" ??

IMHO, it is never "ones that came from approved vendors OR ones copied from originials."
It should always be ones made using:

1. period raw materials
2. period patterns, forms, and models
3. period methods of construction or production

It is usually so, that "approved vendors" tend to produce items that approach more of Nos. 1-3 than other makers and vendors. (With the recognition other than AC Forum approved vendors do as well.)

IMHO, the "cheapest you can get" come from the AC WTS folder, where unused, gently used, and used accoutrements are often found from the "premium" makers.

Regarding multiple accoutrements for multiple impressions... IMHO, that is a personal choice as to whether on chooses to attend events doing event-specific portrayals that require specific or specific-to-the-unit clothing and gear.
For example, a Pattern of 1857 .58 box can be made to work for many US and CS impressions, 1861-1865. But even the most "authentic" say "Enfield" import box will not work for all or as many US and CS impressions, and if that is the required box for Such-and-Such event, one may decide not to attend if they cannot borrow a loaner, etc.,

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[August77]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

From what I am to understand the approved sutlers use a 8 oz leather and the no no's use a 10 oz which is much thicker of a leather





Justin Meinert

There's not too much of a difference between 8 & 10 oz. leather and as far as authenticity goes I have seen originals vary in thickness. Hides can vary from 8 to 10 oz. from shoulder to butt or spine to belly. I'm assuming in talking about 8 or 10 oz. leather, we're talking about cartridge boxes. The rest of your accoutrements will vary from piece to piece as well. Belts are generally 6/7 oz. as opposed to your cartridge box flap of 8/9 oz.

I think in a general sense (without splitting hairs) what you should be looking for in leather is something with flexibility, has a natural looking finish (not spray painted), and doesn't smell like cow piss.

[Fenianboy]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Bill, Well stated....Hank would be proud!!!!!

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Hi,

Missouri Boot and Shoe, E. J. Thomas, and Trans-Mississippi Depot make all very good equipment. Missouri Boot and Shoe has good equipment for a little less price than the other two. I would go with a M1857 Cartridge box and other 1850's equipment because they generally fit most impressions on both sides of the war.

[BishopLynch]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

What I want is an authentic set that I can use for both on the tier 1 level. Is there a "do-all" here or does a person HAVE to invest in several sets?

I think here is a question where your answer is flat out just doing research into the different sets of accouterments used by both sides. There is no easy answer. How specific do you want to get? Do you portray specific units on both sides or are we talking general? There are many possibilities.
I myself am researching Federal cartridge boxes now and, again, there are some which, depending on the scenario called for, I could use also with a Confederate kit. Off the top of my head I cant tell you which, sorry but Im at work now.

On another note, I would offer this advice about buying gear. You get what you pay for. Im not knocking those vendors who sell good gear at lower prices, nor am I saying that those vendors who sell the most expensive stuff are any better than other authentic vendors. Over the past 7 years I have bought goods because they were cheaper but eventually replaced them with new or better gear. Its up to you. I would say just to spend the money now and youll be happy you did 10 years down the road when item X Y or Z is still holding up.
However, to basically state what Curt said, before buying anything new ALWAYS check the BST forum on the A/C as you can usually find top notch used gear for much less than new and usually without the the long wait.
Again, not putting down other good vendors, but personally I would look for Nick Duvall leather goods for sale on the AC or save my money and buy them new.

[cprljohnivey]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

I had to build my impression over the years slowly on a budget. I stated with US leathers. That generically worked for both sides. Then I slowly worked in CS leather pieces. First an English snake belt, then a cartridge box, and finally a cap box.

What was nice about starting with the US box was it's versatility. You could wear it on a sling or on a belt. You could have the box and breast plates on or off. With the box plate off the US box and my english belt... few noticed I was carrying a US box.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Thanks for the replies. My primary impression is 37th VA infantry....primarily a ANV unit. I have found several examples of ANV gear from period pictures. I have recently began working on a Army of the Cumberland federal impression. This is where I've ran into the leather gear trouble. It's not so much which styles is the best (correct or authentically appropriate). To redirect/rephrase my question...what traits of good leather gear make them good (ie, moisture, flexibility, finish, thickness, etc)? In other words..in other words, to me what makes a good shell jacket good, is 1. Correct pattern 2. correct material 3. appropriate for desired impression 4. Correct construction 5. Correctly worn. What are these characteristics in leather goods?

[lukegilly13]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Hallo!

It should always be ones made using:

1. period raw materials
2. period patterns, forms, and models
3. period methods of construction or production
Curt

Curt, thanks for the reply. This is more along the lines of what i'm looking for. To clarify, if I had two cartrige boxes laying in front of me in the exact same pattern and the same price...what could one look for to determine which box is "better" than the other?

[/QUOTE]There's not too much of a difference between 8 & 10 oz. leather and as far as authenticity goes I have seen originals vary in thickness. Hides can vary from 8 to 10 oz. from shoulder to butt or spine to belly. I'm assuming in talking about 8 or 10 oz. leather, we're talking about cartridge boxes. The rest of your accoutrements will vary from piece to piece as well. Belts are generally 6/7 oz. as opposed to your cartridge box flap of 8/9 oz.[/QUOTE]
Thanks a bunch. Do you know if period leathers were priced differently as they are now? For instance, "pakistani leather" is known to be cheaper now...could one say the same for the period? I wonder if there existed any competition for the "contract" of leather purchase by the military?

[August77]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Luke,

Leather (referring to hides, not finished products) was sold by weight 'back then' and is sold by square footage today. As far as finished products go, there was always competition between makers to get the contracts. Bottom line these manufacturers were running a business and certainly needed the work to stay in business. One thing to keep in mind with military equipage is the fact that is made by the lowest bidder. Why would the government pay $3 for 'X' when they could pay $2.87? As long as it followed the prescribed pattern and withstood field usage.

If you're looking for info. on Federal boxes than, it probably goes without saying, you really need to get your hands on Paul Johnson's Cartridge Box book. The military equipage 3-volume set by Frederick P. Todd is a good overall resource too, but is outdated.

Modern reproductions are probably constructed too well, i.e. nice straight cuts, perfect stitches, edges well dressed, etc. I know I am guilty of that, but then again my customers are paying good money for the gear instead of it being issued to them. Think about some of the contracts during this time for 10,000 sets or even more. I can't fathom making that many cartridge boxes, but these leather shops did it... and on time or they lost the contract!!!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Hallo!

"Curt, thanks for the reply. This is more along the lines of what i'm looking for. To clarify, if I had two cartrige boxes laying in front of me in the exact same pattern and the same price...what could one look for to determine which box is "better" than the other?"

Ah Herr Luke... if I had that answer and could put it in a bottle or box and sell it, I might would be rich. ;) :)

IMHO, the answer is an education not a posted reply.

Meaning, any possible answer is driven by two sets of "dynamics:"

1. On a Sliding Scale of Imperfection, as with any reproduced article or item,
how close does it come in capturing CW Period raw materials, patterns/forms/ models, and methods/techniques of construction as evidenced by the more common or mass produced "archetype." (Making note of copying originals may indeed copy the one-of-kind, rare, oddity or protype, etc, etc. And that tension is a whole other discussion).

and

2. On a Sliding Scale of Imperfection, how much of an educated consumer and informed customer are we when it comes to No. 1 above, and how that actually fits into what standards we have for ourselves and what standards our segment of the CW Commuinity imposes upon us when it comes to our Mental Picture.

For example, I started out, In the Beginning, with one of those folded leather envelopes Navy Arms used to sell as a Civil War "cartridge box" because I was new, uniformed, uneducated, had no guidance or mentors, and believed it had to be "right" otherwise they could not sell it. AND, I actually used for a few years before discovering C & D Jarnagin.

As shared, unless you have access to originals, museums, or collections, I would echo the advice to either purchase or Inter-Library Loan borrow appropriate research books such as Paul Johnson's "Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman."

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[lukegilly13]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

I will see the nearby University this afternoon searching for that book. If they can't get it, i'll probably order it. I guess the hobby would be no fun if it were full of "cut-and-dry" patterns or "do-all's". I have a knapsack made by MB&S and it is my new favorite piece of gear. I have extreme confidence in them and their work as my single bag is truely a work of art. I trust that when I do choose a pattern, they will do an exceptional job of recreating it.

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Lost in a Sea of Accoutrements

Luke, Cedar Creek has some decent leathers. They are about 45 mins away. Everything I've seen from them is good. I dont know if they are still making leathers since Jim died though. You have probably already looked at their gear, but from listening to guys talk about it, it sounds pretty good.