Mechanics of an event

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Mechanics of an event

Now ya'll are sounding like logisticians in today's US Army- "Where do we set up? How many people are going to be there? Water supply is where? etc...":p

Niiice- Johnny

[boreguard]

Re: Mechanics of an event

The best amount of water is unlimited. The best water source is hard mounted small funnel like fittings that can be bought dirt cheap, attached to 1/2 inch faucets, and will fit the neck of a canteen allow for quick fill and no spill. The problem with most water sources is the 1/2 inch water faucet by itself, which is larger than the neck of a canteen... I stand in amazement at the event organizers that wonder why so much water winds up on the ground. Face it a safe water supply will come from a very farby source regardless, so one more ugly step can economize water and make for faster fill ups by water details. So in an effort to make this folder informative, that's my fisrt contribution. ;)

[Spinster]

Re: Mechanics of an event

Chawls,

You've already seen the difference between my water lifting and hauling capacity and yours :D

Especially when I didn't plan on hauling that much water and you being kind enough to help. And I had previously put a pencil and paper to all the rules of thumb I could extract from folks on water amounts. There is no such thing as too much water.

Lordy yes, Chawls is kind to wimmen and children. Don't tell anyone though

[boreguard]

Re: Mechanics of an event

He's such a Ginmen and a wascally wascal !

[Charles Heath]

Re: Mechanics of an event

And I had previously put a pencil and paper to all the rules of thumb I could extract from folks on water amounts.

Terre,

I'm sure this will be filed under "Chawls is being mean and nasty."

Ceteris parabus, reenactors in a campaign environment tend to use less water than those in a static environment. This is mostly due to cooking and cleaning using an incredible amount of water. One of the numbers people tend to leave off their water forecasting is activities. Some activities take enough water to hydrate a company, so combine a few of those with several families, and the water usage quickly quadruples.

Over the past weekend, we had a typical NPS living history with an average of 20 participants for two days. At a gallon per day per participant, that's 40 gallons. The Friday night fill up is about 5 gallons. For sloshing around, I added 20 gallons, and filled a few cans for back up in case some vandal left the water on the in middle of the night. We used approximately 40 gallons. Since I cooked, I was very conservative with the water. In fact 12 gallons were used to extinguish the fire, which has become a real pet peeve of mine since late October 2005.

I didn't see any reason to bring the 210-gallon mushroom tank, so. I used the 65-gallon tank from the infamous mini-me trailer, and the skid for that trailer interior fits well in the bed of the pickup. Since we only had a few people to water, I used a 3/4" brass boiler drain instead of any of the manifolds. Like Neal said, using a reducer saves water. I've consistently run across plenty of supply tubes on clearance tables, and simple leave about 4" of hose on the end of them for the reason he says. In contrast, at the Vicksburg NPS LH this year, the federals used approximately 175 gallons of water. I don't recall if that was a 325 or 400 (or what) gallon tank on the utility trailer, but maybe Pat can chime in here with the headcount and gallon figure for the feds, and maybe the same for the rebs.

I can dig up some of the old and not so old water posts, but most people are darn tired of reading them. IMHO, the biggest advance in the past few years has been the return of water purification tablets, and we can thank Hank Trent for that.

[ephraim_zook]

How much water?

Ladies & Gents,

Bill Watson found this information in response to someone's question a few months ago; please credit him for it. The link below will take you to a modern US Army Field Manual. Scroll down past "Aircraft Washing". Looks like the army calls for a minimum of 2.9 gals per man per day, max of 3.9 gal/man/day in a temperate zone. KEEP IN MIND that this includes water for cooking, cleaning up, personal hygene, etc.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/10-52/Ch3.htm

The rule of thumb I learned regarding drinking water (this means temperate zone, non-strenuous activity) is 0.5 oz water per pound of body weight per day. A 150 lb person (yeah, dream on) requires a tad over ½ gallon per day. Since we can figure on a certain amount of cooking and cleaning up at most events, the tables in FM 10-52 are probably closer to our real requirements, especially given the wastage mentioned in other posts here.

Ron Myzie

[Charles Heath]

Re: How much water?

Ron, that info was posted on a regular basis during the great Lyster (Lister) bag debate circa 2003 or so. The Navy version for their Seabees is also pretty useful.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Mechanics of an event

IMHO, the biggest advance in the past few years has been the return of water purification tablets, and we can thank Hank Trent for that.

From a participant's-eye view, I'll never be without them again. The way I see it, they're no more farby than a spigot or water buffalo, since it's a rare event indeed where one can use an actual period hand-pump or safe spring without some modern intrusion for safety's sake. And it's downright cool to look for creeks or ponds to get water from, rather than for water buffalos, and to compare the flavor from a stagnant pond with a quick mountain stream.

Here's an overview of tablet types. http://outside.away.com/outside/2004..._bugs_die.html

I use Katadyn Micropur MP 1. One tablet in a quart will kill bacteria, viruses, and cryptosporidia in half an hour in warm clear water, longer in cold cloudy water. It won't deal with chemicals or heavy metals, but I figure there are as many nitrates in my bacon as I'd get from drinking average farmland runoff for a weekend. If heavy metals in the ground water are an issue, of course, some other option is necessary. Reported medical problems and side effects appear to be the least among chemical treatments, virtually nil according to that comparison website. Filters are another possibility, but for reenacting, are bulkier and more time consuming, and thus harder to disguise their use.

I've used Micropur extensively for both modern camping and reenacting, with no problem. At reenactments, I fill a canteen at a water source, drop a tablet in, cork it up and go on, knowing I can start drinking half an hour later.

It leaves almost no taste, so for better or worse, the flavor of the original water comes through. I've drunk from the Potomac River, the C&O Canal (though I did turn down the canal water in the Williamsport basin--yuck), farm ponds and creeks. On the '57 camping trip that Charles attended with us, our watering spots included a puddle in the woods where a turtle was soaking, a chanel that the beavers dug to float logs into the lake, and a trickling waterfall over the front of a huge recess cave.

I don't know how treatment tablets would work on a large scale. I believe it was done to some extent at BGR? How did that go?

The problems I can see are that there's a psychological barrier that people may need to get over, there's the issue of everyone needing to remember to treat the water and wait to drink, and to think far enough ahead that they can get by needing water in half an hour but not Right Now, and there's the flavor issue where water is stagnant. It wouldn't do for large usage, like needing two or three gallons for a stationary cookpot. But where creeks, ponds, rivers or puddles are available, it gives unlimited freedom of movement and turns modern logistics (where to place the water buffalo) into period logistics (how to find the creek by looking for low spots and tree lines).

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Mechanics of an event

Tablets...iodine crystals...I remember using these years ago in Boy Scouting...many times backpacking in wilderness areas or backcountry you have to make do with water on the spot...

My fav. purification was the iodine crystals Polar Pure...lets not forget a simple method of boiling water as well...this will usually kill all but the nastiest of water-born bacteria.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: Mechanics of an event

Thing is, there's certain nasty bacteria that water purification tablets and chlorine just won't kill. They're the bane of modern water treatment plants as well, but their owners can usually pass laws to protect their watershed (i.e., water source) from things like dairy farm manure lagoons where nice little buggers like cryptosporidium and giardia lambia tend to thrive. Runnoff from places like dairy farms can cary water laden with these guys into surface water and groundwater that serve as the supply for a modern community or a well that serves reenactors for a weekend.

It's a bit like driving 70 mph on the Interstate. You can do it and probably not get caught, but you MIGHT get caught, and it's still breaking the law... er... risking a nasty infection.

Personally, I prefer to stay with sanitized water supplies at events that come from sources known to be safe.

[Old Reb]

Re: Mechanics of an event

We relied heavily on natural water sources at BGR. We treated the water, but one thing that was in our favor was the fact that just prior to the event we had good rains and that the area we were using had no cattle and no beaver, thus the water was not contaminated. Also, I had drunk from the streams many times and never died or become ill, so I was the test rat for the water source.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Mechanics of an event

"...nice little buggers like cryptosporidium and giardia lambia tend to thrive."

Kevin,

The Micropur tablets allegedly work well to kill cryptosporidium, but aren't effective against giardia. Thus far, I haven't had any troubles with Micropur, and they are definitely light years ahead of the old iodine type tablets.

The whole business of sanitizing containers and delivery systems has been beaten to death on this forum and elsewhere, but it is another good thing to keep in mind. The crud that builds up between events in tanks, cans, barrels, manifolds, hoses, buckets, etc., can be surprising, and not in a good way.

As Hank mentioned, heading over to the water buffalo isn't the most pleasing view in the world, so a little camoflage from barrels to water huts to faux springs can go a long ways. If anyone remembers the article with the plans for the federal water carts, I've often wanted to build one of those with a barrel and some scraps. Looky, a period solution! The wagons Jack King's brigade uses are another decent idea, and one seen in practice on a regular basis.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Mechanics of an event

I want to strongly emphasize that I am not talking about iodine tablets, which I wouldn't personally recommend, due to flavor and health reasons.

For a campaign or moving event in hot weather, the only problem I'd run into with boiling is logistics. On a hot day walking/marching, I'll drink a gallon a day. That means I'd either need to have a container large enough to boil a gallon at once and carry it all at the start of the day, plus the time to start a fire, bring it to a boil, and let it cool down. Or four times a day I'd need the time and situation to start a fire, boil a quart of water, then cool it enough to transport and/or drink. For me, that's just too much trouble, compared to 30 seconds of dropping in a tablet. (Edited to add: if it were a period activity, I'd be glad to do it regardless of the trouble.) And unless you're always drinking the water as coffee or tea or soup, there's still no period explanation for all that boiling of plain water, so although it requires no anachonistic items, it still requries anachronistic behavior. Yes, I know, you'll rarely see boiling recommended in period sources, but it was one of many random suggestions and certainly not PEC for someone to boil all the water they drank. (Edited to add: this may be one of those personal subjective judgment calls. Is it "more authentic" to engage in a modern-motivated activity for a longer time while using only period items, or to cut the modern activity down to a few seconds by using a non-period item?)

At a cold-weather event, where less water is used, with predictable firewood and halt times, or at a stationary event where there's always a coffee-pot or soup or "hot dishwater" over the fire, I agree that boiling would be practical.

Thing is, there's certain nasty bacteria that water purification tablets and chlorine just won't kill. They're the bane of modern water treatment plants as well, but their owners can usually pass laws to protect their watershed (i.e., water source) from things like dairy farm manure lagoons where nice little buggers like cryptosporidium and giardia lambia tend to thrive. Runnoff from places like dairy farms can cary water laden with these guys into surface water and groundwater that serve as the supply for a modern community or a well that serves reenactors for a weekend.

Kevin, I'm not sure I'm reading the above paragraph correctly. Are you saying that crypto and giardia are the things that purification tablets won't kill, or are you referring to some other bacteria that you didn't name?

Iodine and chlorine-based tablets won't kill crypto, but I'm not recommending those.

The tablet I use is different. It's based on chlorine dioxide and is EPA tested to kill both crypto and giardia.

Personally, I prefer to stay with sanitized water supplies at events that come from sources known to be safe.

So do I. However, the fact is, as you know, that almost all commercially provided water comes from a source, originally, that's unsafe to drink directly from, else there wouldn't be a need for commercial treatment plants. Our commercial water at home comes from the Ohio River, but I wouldn't go down to the bank and drink it straight.

But if it's sanitized by a treatment plant by the thousands of gallons, or sanitized by the quart, as long as it's treated by an EPA-tested method to bring it to approved levels for bacteria, viruses and cysts, and is therefore "known" to be safe, what difference does it make?

I think this is an example of the psychological barrier I was talking about.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Hank Trent]

Re: Mechanics of an event

Kevin,

The Micropur tablets allegedly work well to kill cryptosporidium, but aren't effective against giardia.

Um, actually, they claim to be "The only disinfection system effective against viruses, bacteria, cryptosporidium, and Giardia." http://www.e-omc.com/catalog/product...r-Tablets.html Do you know something I don't?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Spinster]

Re: Mechanics of an event

That psychological barrier works the other way too.

For BGR, I was hauling civilian water supplies from a park outlet 10 miles away, and filling wood barrels with a food-grade liner on site.

By the time they got to us, the men were so habituated to the idea that their canteen water had to have a tablet dropped in, along with a waiting period, the idea of clean, ready, drinkable water was foreign to them. Several kept checking with whispered references, not quite believing that they could drink all they wanted, and right then.....