Going to the hospital

[rbruno]

To All,
I have always wondered what a trooper did with all of his epuipment including his horse if he was in the hospital? For instance, if I am in a cav regiment in the ANV and I come down with one of multiple illness of the time and sent to the hospital. In other words, I am not wounded and left on the battlefield and than taken to the hospital and at someone elses mercy. How am I transported to the hospital? This may seem like a dumb question, but do I ride my horse and are there facilities at the hospital to care for the horse? What happens to all of my tack not to mention my weapons? Given the movement of cav, I can't believe it would be left in camp and there when I returned because camp may not be in the same place. So, basically, what was the process for a trooper to go to the hospital and be returned to the field when he was well. Also, I have heard that hospitals could or sometimes issued uniforms to men returning to their units. Does anyone have any documentation for that?

Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[1stMaine]

Re: Going to the hospital

Comrade,

Any government property that you had issued to you would be turned over to your command prior to your leaving. It was receipted for by the Captain, anyway, and it would be either held in the regimental wagon, or issued to someone else who needed it.

Your weapon, accoutrements, saddle and harness, etc, all belonged to the unit, not to you. You would be issued with new equipment (or your old, if it was still on hand) in the event of your return.

You would most always take with you your knapsack and blanket(s), spare clothing if any, and your haversack and canteen. At the hospital, those items would be taken from you anf placed into storage until you were discharged. You would be given a receipt for the items, and they would be tagged with your name, etc.

Occasionally new clothing was issed to soldiers upon discharge from hospital. You could also ask for new issue, and have it charged to your clothing account.

The reason you kept only your personal equipment, and left your weapons and other items behind is that many times men were assigned to other units as need be upon discharge from hospital, or were sent to the invalid corps (both armies had them) or perhaps discharged if you were unable to return to duty. As I stated above, the other reason is that those items belong to the unit, not to you, and your company commander and up through the Colonel are responsible for them.

Anyway, that's the short of it. There is lots of paperwork involved, and not every case is the same, but in general, that's what would have happened.

Respects,

[Hank Trent]

Re: Going to the hospital

I thought this was a pretty interesting question, that I hadn't thought about before.

Your weapon, accoutrements, saddle and harness, etc, all belonged to the unit, not to you. You would be issued with new equipment (or your old, if it was still on hand) in the event of your return.

So what would happen to the horse? Who would be responsible for his care and/or transportation? Even if a horse was "reissued" to someone else whose horse was unsound, that means there must have been a horse depot of sorts to keep a pool of horses ready, and a way to transport them there and to where they were needed next.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Going to the hospital

But didn't he say he was a trooper in a regiment in the ANV? That would make him Confederate. What about Confederates who brought their mounts and tack from home, say early war? More importantly, what about Confederate TMD troops who had quite a bit of private purchase equipment? Surely they got as sick and went to the hospital as much as anyone else. Very interesting topic, by the way. I never thought about it before.

[csabugler]

Re: Going to the hospital

You beat me to it larry, Was gonna say the same thing. Maybe one of the medical impression groups will pipe in with some info. Makes sense for federal. Very good question for secesh.

[1stMaine]

Re: Going to the hospital

Fellers,

I'd give you pretty good odds that someone else will be riding that mount right soon, even if he owned it outright. The records of every single CS cavalry unit will show a number of troopers without mounts and there isn't a single Commander I could think of who wouldn't appropriate that mount to put another man in the saddle, even if he had to seize it and give the former owner a receipt and CS scrip for it, same as for any property taken by the military.

There is simply no way to take the horse to the hospital, especially if it is beyond the local area, and there would be little stadd available to care for the animal, let alone provide forage, etc.

As to the difference beyween Federal and CS cavalry, except for the ownership of the animal issue, there would be little to no difference in the regulations regarding issued property, regimental property, etc.

Respects,

[rbruno]

All,
I have come across one example of a trooper giving his horse to a dismounted man in the battalion. However, he was not on his way to the hospital and was captured the next day. This was very late in the war. I always figured he had basically had enough and gave his horse away. I will look for the info but may take a while. I have looked at many of the OR that are in the MD historical society and did not find any receipts for someone giving his horse to another when he went to the hospital. There were plenty of examples and documents for the government repaying a soldier for his horse being ki

[ktfrench]

Re: Going to the hospital

One of my ancestors, Levi Minnick rode with the 7th Virginia. In his service records, 3 muster roll entries have the following remarks:

(3/31/1864) Absent - Horse valued at $700 At home on furlough

(4/30/64) Present - Horse valued at $850

(8/31/1864) Present - Horse valued at $1900 pay due on horse 2 mos. 21 days

This last entry seems to indicate that it was his personal property.

Kevin French

[rbruno]

Re: Going to the hospital

Mods and All,
Sorry about my last post. I had a computer problem in the middle of typing. I tried to fix, but it did not get posted. The original did have my signature. Hopefully, I can complete my post. I have only seen one example of a trooper giving his horse to a dismounted man in the battalion. He was in camp and not on his way to the hospital. He was captured the next day. This was very late in the war, and I guessed he had basically had enough and gave his horse to someone else and was "captured" the next day. I have search many personal records of men in the 1st MD Cav and did not find any examples of a man given a receipt for his horse when he went to the hospital. I found several payments for horses when killed in battle and equipment lost. I don't want this post to start the debate on battlefield pick-ups, but what about equipment/items picked up on the battlefield and not issued directly to the trooper? Would they be turned over to the company? Again, what would happen to the man when he got better and came back? Would the officers then strip the man that had the sick soldiers horse and arms and thus making him less effective? Would the sick man report to Camp Lee to be reoutfitted? Again, I would come back to the horse and equipment if it is brought from home. I find it hard to believe that a soldier who brought his own horse and equipment to war, then get sick, would have to find a new horse and equipment when his is in camp being used by a different man. I hope this discussion continues. We all seem to be making educated guesses. If someone has first hand account, please post.

Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[1stMaine]

Re: Going to the hospital

Rob,

Regarding the equipmet(s) of a trooper sent to hospital, the following is from the CS Regulations (revised 1863), but this section is worded the same in earlier editioms. I am getting closer on the horse issue(s) and will post that later.

-------------------------------------------------------------

1178. Soldiers in hospital, patients or attendants, except stewards, shall be mustered on the rolls
of their company, if it is present at the post.
1179. When a soldier in hospital is detached from his company so as not to be mustered with it
for pay, his company commander shall certify and send to the hospital his descriptive list, and
account of pay and clothing, containing all necessary information relating to his accounts with
the Confederate States, on which on which the Surgeon shall enter all payments, stoppages, and
issues of clothing to him in hospital. When he leaves the hospital, the medical officer shall
certify and remit his descriptive list, showing the state of his accounts. If he is discharged from
the service in hospital, the Surgeon shall make out his final statements for pay and clothing. If
he dies in hospital, the surgeon shall take charge of his effects, and make the reports required in
the general regulations concerning soldiers who die absent from their companies.
1180. Patients in hospital are, if possible, to leave their arms and accoutrements with their
companies, and in no case to take ammunition into the hospital.
1181. When a patient is transferred from one hospital to another, the medical officer shall send
with him an account of his case, and the treatment.
1182. The regulations for the service of hospitals apply, so far as practicable, to the medical
services in the field.

------------------------------------------------------

Addotionally, see this article by Phil Katcher here:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/3964/ordnance.html

From which I highlight the following:

Finally, on May 20, 1862, the duties of the Confederate regimental ordnance sergeants were officially spelled out by the chief of ordnance: "Duties of ordnance-sergeants.
"First. To obey the direction of the division ordnance officer of the brigade ordnance officer )if the brigade is a separate command) in all relative to care and preservation of arms and duties connected therewith.
"Second. To take charge of all supplies, arms, and ammunition of the regiment and make returns of the same according to "Ordnance regulations." Issues to be made on written requisitions approved by the colonel or commanding officer of the regiment; which requisitions are to be filed with his "Return of property.'
"Third. To take charge of the ordnance wagon or wagons attached to each regiments, and to see that it always contains at least fifteen rounds per man of the regiment--surplus arms or accouterments to be turned over to the brigade or division ordnance officer.
"Fourth. To supervise the condition of the arms of the regiment and get a detail of at least two mechanics to assist him in the necessary repairs to the arms, an account of these repairs to be kept as far as possible against each man of the regiment; repairs to be made on the order of the colonel of the regiment.
"Fifth. To take charge of the arms and accouterments of the sick of the regiments in hospitals, which will be kept until the sick are sent to the general hospital, when their arms be turned over to the brigade or division depots.
"Sixth. In battle it will be the duty of the ordnance-sergeants to remain with the ammunition wagons and act with the details assigned to them from the regiments, under the orders of the ordnance officer, in supplying the troops with ammunition, collecting arms of the killed and wounded, and securing captured arms and ammunition."
Hence, while Union ordnance sergeants were few in number and marked by a distinctive uniform, Confederate ordnance sergeants were as numerous as Confederate infantry regiments, whose colors they may have also adopted.

[rbruno]

Re: Going to the hospital

Tim
Thanks for the details. That was what I was looking for. If you find the regulations concerning the horse, that would be great. The manual/regulations are interesting things to read. I often wonder how this was all accomplished in the field, hence my post. I wonder how the cavalry that was in general moving so much could keep all of weapons/etc in wagons up with the army. Anyway, please post the info on the horse when you can.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[rbruno]

Re: Going to the hospital

I wanted to revive this thread to see if anyone had anymore info on what went on in the field. Several post site what was in the manuals, but I was still curious about soldiers individual accounts. I am attaching a requisition I found in the OR for a Cpt. in the 1st MD Cav. Capt. Rasin was in the hospital when he requested forage for his two horses. His command at this time was in and around Fredricksburg. The delivery for forage from what I can tell is at Charlettsvile where he was in the hospital. I guess one can make an argument that an officer would be allowed to take his horse to the hospital, but not a private. I don't know, food for thought. If anyone has a different interpretatin of this document, might be more good conversation.

[rbruno]

Re: Going to the hospital

I didn't know if this got bumped back to the new post section. Just wanted to see if anyone had any other accounts besides the one I recently posted.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Going to the hospital

I am sorry I will not be able to "cite" my sources except the reading of an abundance of cavalry diaries and post war reminiscences. Anyway, from my reading in general the trooper who was wounded and sent to the hospital in the rear (often many miles away) he usually "lost" his horse. That is, if it survived it would go to mount another “dismounted” trooper in his company, regiment, etc. As normally would his equipments and weapons. Upon his recovery (if he did) he might get the horse back as personal property if the horse was still alive, that is, and then he would be re-outfitted with new (used) equipments/weapons from the regimental ordnance officer.
As for the officer, officer's often had multiple horses (purchased or “acquired” from capture), often cared for by servants. All were kept in the rear or at the wagon (regimental, ordnance, baggage) train when on campaign. If he was wounded and sent to the hospital the horses were cared for by the servants, sometimes sent home but often they were put to use by other officers either temporarily or permanently. All depending upon his opportunities for recovery, proximity, etc., etc.
Same with wounded or lame horses belonging to officers. They would often share their horses for duty with officers of their mess. Their collective servants were responsible for caring (feeding, forage) for them and riding them with the trains as they kept up with the army.
This is all a generality with a lot of variations in practice but a fairly common overview.....that is, in opinion from my humble reading.


Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Going to the hospital

Mr. Knopp, do you know of any instances where a Confederate cavalryman may have acted like the officers in your example -- e.g., "loaned" his horse to a comrade or someone else to look after, or even sold it to someone? Did the CS government ever buy (or receipt for) horses on the spot in situations like that?

I ask because although I think I have a fairly good idea of how the U.S. government would handle this (horses are quartermaster property; saddles &c. are ordnance), I don't know how it would work in C.S. service, in which the horses belong to the men.

This must have come up quite a bit. I get the sense that the average soldier was sick enough to go to hospital a couple of times a year. Even if a few horses die on him in the same period, there must have been many occasions when sick soldiers had to turn over healthy horses to somebody.

Interesting topic.