english saddles

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

Excellent points, complicated or confounded by trying to find the evolutionary benchmarks in Time when what has evolved over time in the 19th century and 20th century gets "codified" enough to make it into the
formal manuals and riding masters' lessons.

For example, the evolution of drift between form and function, and form and purpose. As seen in the evolution of the saddle when fox hunting and the need for jumping went one direction while the "cowboy" saddle went in another.

Or possibly with the flat saddle-seat that seems to have co-evolved with a need for the rider to sit further back to show off the front leg action of show or flashy horses on Sunday rides. Or more close to home, the "plantation" master showing off his gaited horse while riding across his estate.

And out of the practice(s) as well as the function and use, comes the teaching of the style or form.

Curt
Who maintains that a back saddle or saddle seat is just a flat leather pad Mess

;)

[Ken Knopp]

Re: english saddles

Scott, nice job encapsulating the east vs west saddle question! If I could, may I echo/add a point to Hank’s excellent comments?.....

Q: “That brings up another good point concerning period English saddles. In the period, it seems that English saddles were generally ridden without extra blankets underneath, while today they're almost always ridden with a blanket or extra pad. As just one example, note that the modern image of the English saddle in this thread above shows a blanket under it, while the period painting of the saddled horse for sale shows none. It wasn't 100% of course--I'm sure one could find some period images of English saddles with blankets--but definitely a trend that's changed today.”

How true! Many but not all English saddles of the period came with pads underneath to facilitate the saddle blanket. These type saddles were normally not utilitarian but made for the pleasure riding trade and there fore comfort- not much on durability.

Q: “Other than roping cattle (which is a big thing of course), what were westerners using their saddles for that easterners weren't? Or was there a reason that westerners did some tasks mounted, that easterners did on foot?

For example, I'm not sure what I said that horns were useful for, other than roping, unless you mean skidding logs. But the logging industry was thriving in the east with its own equipment since the colonial days, and I'm not sure a horn would be an improvement for skidding logs all day, compared to a harness meant for the job.”

Other than to “hang” things off of....one big consideration for the use of the horn was a place to rest the rifle which in the west, always needed to be close at hand. Beyond the obvious, period photos, etc. I have observed many period saddles with wear marks on the top of the horn or pommel indicating such usage and....several old shotguns and rifles with complimentary wear on the forestock. Perhaps just as important, the extended bars of the rawhide covered Spanish-influenced (horned and otherwise) saddles left room for posting rings in which to carry other items such as canteens, bed rolls, etc. In addition to durability, the general design of the English tree and its low pommel did not suit itself well to either of these needs.

Great thread!

Ken R Knopp

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

I think Mr. Knopp has done a pretty good job of covering horn uses(and thank you for the kind words sir!)... when you start riding a horned saddle in "period environs" you find all sorts of things they're good for! Personally I've never liked the horn loop for my longarm but the horn itself makes a good counterbalance to help keep your longarm in your lap and my saddle and shotgun have the wear marks to prove it(and that is an easily documentable practice to the mid 19th c.).

Without taking time to dig it out, I recall in Man Made Mobile there were letters from Kearney? or some other dragoon officer ca. 1833 complaining that the saddles then employed by the US dragoons were not holding up well on their campaigns. It seems the English type underpadding was wearing out and causing the saddles to fit improperly. Once the underpadding is shot all you can do is rip it out unless you have a saddler trained in restuffing them. Of course the M33 is an entirely different story and direction from the one we're headed in here, but it does relate because of the underpadding issues, that and some contend the M33 was in fact an English saddle!

I'm gonna go crawl back into my antebellum hole now!:)

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

GREAT THREAD on the A/C for once!!

Here's a link to another thread I started to discuss an 1862 photo of secret serviceman John Babcock and his horse, Gimlet. Note the points I've highlighted and view the pdf attachment for details. This English saddle is very 19th century, with next to no knee roll and sits very flat. He's using both a saddle cloth and a blanket underneath this saddle. Also note the civilian headstall with rosettes and use of a simple snaffle with snap hooks stitched onto the reins. I also love the cheek stops used, which are still commonplace for many today and the running martingale with safes, also commonplace when necessary today. This is NOT a breast strap.

Many historical photos and paintings show horses without any blanket. I believe its a more traditional way of looking at a horse under saddle. Even today, the most traditionally turned out foxhunters use a pad that's no larger than the underbars of their saddle. Remember, the emphasis is and was ALWAYS the horse. Again...remember what's important and what isn't...MINIMAL HUMAN incursion on the movement of the animal! Equine portraits and paintings emphasize the horse, hence why so many racehorses, studs, etc. are most often shown standing with bridle or halter only. Perhaps this can help lead into the psychological difference between "east" and "west" as many cow ponies were just a tool to be used. I agree, though, that under hard campaign...pads wear out and blankets must be used. Just look at Babcock and Gimlet in the highlighted thread.

European armies and continental armies had been using, riding, and working hard for centuries out of saddles that are basic and many were English in design. They're light, practical, and comfortable. You SHOULD be able to accomplish all tasks on a horse bareback and in fact, learning to ride bareback should always come first. An English saddle accomplishes all that's needed as a base for stirrup leathers to be hung, while providing a smaller platform that's lightweight and minimally interferes with the animal. I still stand by my belief that at a basic level...the more things change, the more they stay the same.

See this thread for the John Babcock and Gimlet attachment:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ead.php?t=5183

[English Doc]

Re: english saddles

GREAT THREAD on the A/C for once!!

Here's a link to another thread I started to discuss an 1862 photo of secret serviceman John Babcock and his horse, Gimlet. Also note the civilian headstall with rosettes and use of a simple snaffle with snap hooks stitched onto the reins. I also love the cheek stops used, which are still commonplace for many today and the running martingale with safes, also commonplace when necessary today. This is NOT a breast strap.

Great! Today the cheek stops are made of rubber and are still fairly difficult to put on. I assume those of the type in the Gimlet image are/were leather? So how were they fitted? Did they have a slot in them?

If anyone has any information on that I for one would be very interested.

Thanks.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

Its really impossible to tell from the photo, but they could be leather or a hard rubber. I assume they're either holed or slotted.

The safes on the martingale are definitely slotted to allow the reins to pass through.

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

You SHOULD be able to accomplish all tasks on a horse bareback and in fact, learning to ride bareback should always come first. [/URL]

Mr. Schumaker,

I would agree with you regarding learning to ride bareback, but do you really believe you should be able to accomplish all tasks bareback? There are some tasks that are impossible to do bareback and others that while they can be attempted, or even carried out, are not effective without a saddle of some sort. If everything could be done bareback, there would be no need for a saddle, or maybe more importantly, stirrups!

How does one get in on the "mounted" special interests group here on the AC?

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Interesting discussion and good information all around. I'm not sure the Ford vs. Chevy analogy is the best one, though. More like Ford vs. Land Rover or Chevy vs. Toyota.

Hank, I admire your love for the English saddle and I've enjoyed the discussion on seat position. I think Scott, Ken and Patrick have expertly pointed out the utilitarian uses for spanish trees and saddle horns, so I have nothing else to add. I will say this... I believe that the popularity of western movies in 20th century culture undoubtedly had an impact on the type of saddles people ride today. However, the evidence is overwhelming that here in Louisiana the spanish impact was immediate and severe, long before California was a state. Here in the "southwest" our culture developed independently and differently than our more cultured brethren in the east. We rode our horses and mules to coon hunt, not fox hunt, and it was for meat, not for sport. Cattle was the dominant industry along in our rural areas since the early 1700s and the vaquero tools of trade spread through here like wildfire because they were much more practical.

I honestly believe that culture had everything to do with the war and what our soldiers were riding and how they rode. I don't know a thing about a forward seat and I honestly don't know a single person who would speak to me walking down the street that owns an English saddle. I know quite a few trailriders who ride endurance saddles or Australian hybrids (with horns, usually), and they'll speak to me sometimes. I think it's a matter of culture, plain and simple.

I've ridden in an English saddle a few times (but I didn't let my friends see me) and I thought it was a decent enough ride, but it's not something I'd want to sit in all day every day trying to get my daddy's cow out of the swamp. I think my Trans-Mississippi Confederate ancestors probably had the same feelings that I did. I can ride a horse. I don't know if my body is alligned perpindicular to the pivot of the forward motion of my equine companion, but I know that when I need ol' Dobbin to jump a slough or dead tree in the woods at a gallop or get in front of a steer and keep him from turning back to the herd that my butt stays where I put it.

Please don't get me wrong. I admire and respect those from other cultures that have a different way of doing things. Especially when they admire and respect us for having our own way of doing things. I believe the same was true during the war.

However, I never had my original question answered and that really bothers me. All I really want to know, and I'm serious, is what makes that modern English saddle of Chris' wrong for our hobby today?

Oh, yeah, and Longrope, that is Alfred Pleasanton with Custer and not J. Kilpatrick. Or am I wrong about that, too?

Great thread.

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

However, I never had my original question answered and that really bothers me. All I really want to know, and I'm serious, is what makes that modern English saddle of Chris' wrong for our hobby today?

I thought I gave my opinion on that in post #24 above. Short answer: The tree would be balanced to encourage a rider to use posture that's popular today, rather than what was common in the 1860s.

I don't know about the saddle in the picture in particular, but that would be true for modern hunter-jumper English saddles, and was true for the modern "all-purpose" English saddle I used to ride.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

I thought I gave my opinion on that in post #24 above. Short answer: The tree would be balanced to encourage a rider to use posture that's popular today, rather than what was common in the 1860s.

I don't know about the saddle in the picture in particular, but that would be true for modern hunter-jumper English saddles, and was true for the modern "all-purpose" English saddle I used to ride.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

Hank,

I apologize. I think my question is a little vague so forgive me if I seem the same way. Let me see if I can rephrase the question.

For those of us who know little to nothing about English saddles, visually, what makes this saddle wrong? When I think of a saddle tree, I think of a wooden frame under the leather or rawhide. My idea of an English tree is the same, except that the frame is completely covered with leather. I'm not sure how the shape of the tree on this rig puts you in a different seat, so my question should be worded in an even more simplified fashion: Is it the shape of the seat, the rise of the cantle, the slope of the pommel, the shape of the skirts or that little padded thingy on the front of the skirt? Is it the shape and/or position of the hardware, the color of the leather, or all of the above?

I know you tried to answer my question earlier, and I appreciate it, but I'm a little thick and I didn't catch your meaning. Maybe my more simplified question will help.

[MustangGray]

Re: english saddles

Larry,

The hardware is probably chromed and the underpadding on the originals I've seen(and I haven't seen that many) tends not to be leather, it seems like it's usually cloth. I'm nto sure, but the keeper on the skirt looks modern... can't recall seeing that on an original and the knee roll looks different than what I'm used to seeing.

I know you're not wanting one but if you did, this is what you'd want it to look like! http://www.stuartliliesaddles.com/in...9thmilitia.htm

Stuart is the man when it comes to making 19th century English saddles. He makes a variety of patterns from the 18th century on up and I wish he was here to get in on this discussion!!!

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: english saddles

Thanks, Scott, that's what I was looking for. I'm familiar with Lilie's work and have his site saved to my favorites. I was under the impression that all English saddles of the period had really flat seats like a jockey saddle, but that doesn't appear to be the case. It looks like seat styles varried a little, even then.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

Mr. Schumaker,

I would agree with you regarding learning to ride bareback, but do you really believe you should be able to accomplish all tasks bareback?

Well, you're right...not everything is easily, nor wanted to be achieved riding bareback. My point was more to stress the importance of the seat and learning it bareback before the use of any other assistance. The saddle seat is the single most important tool and rider has to accomplish anything mounted.

Regarding the differences between 18th and 19th century saddles vs. modern ones...well, many of the obvious things stand out. Wooden trees vs. composite, shapes of trees, synthetic seat webbing vs. cloth, completely hand stitched vs. combination of machine and hand, wool flocking with leather panels vs. cloth, stainless hardware, and on and on. Materials are current, but I'd dare say that the best makers employing some of the same techniques used in construction is something that's timeless.

I highly recommend looking at Stuart Lillie's site. Very good 18th and early 19th century saddles, which shows some of the evolution between civilian english, Hungarian hussar, and further hybrids thereof.

For those that are interested in Berney Bros., there's a great little video on them here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1MrEMABtYg

Mods, if this link is too modern...please excuse, but this family owned company has been hand making saddles since 1820 and many of the tools, materials, techniques are still in use today. Much of what is being talked about can only greatly enhance peoples' knowledge and understanding of equine material culture over the centuries, including the tiny spec from 1861-1865. Just listen what the old man says about what it takes to make a good saddle. The first thing out of his mouth: "A good tradesman, who knows what he's making."

[Hank Trent]

Re: english saddles

When I think of a saddle tree, I think of a wooden frame under the leather or rawhide. My idea of an English tree is the same, except that the frame is completely covered with leather. I'm not sure how the shape of the tree on this rig puts you in a different seat, so my question should be worded in an even more simplified fashion: Is it the shape of the seat, the rise of the cantle, the slope of the pommel, the shape of the skirts or that little padded thingy on the front of the skirt? Is it the shape and/or position of the hardware, the color of the leather, or all of the above?

Others have answered far better about all the changes in construction details. Guess I was just assuming that we were talking about if obvious things like non-natural materials, chrome/stainless, stitching, etc. were taken care of.

But just to address the one issue I mentioned, I've never actually compared naked trees, but it feels like the modern tree is designed to be lower at the pommel end and higher at the cantle end. Think of the difference between sitting in an office chair with a flat seat and a couch with a seat angled slightly back. An office chair naturally makes it easier to "sit up" and type, while a couch naturally makes it easier to lean back.

Tried to find some pictures, not much luck.

Here's a modern dressage saddle tree, but I can't find an equivalent photo of a period tree or a modern hunter-jumper tree. Maybe these series of illustrations show it better. Compare the height of the pommel on the jumping saddles most designed to encourage forward seat (#1-5) with the height of the pommel on the dressage saddle (#6) for more centered riding.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

It can be tricky to impossible sometimes to find what one is looking for.

Here is a painting of Prince Wilhelm of Prussia (future Kaiser Wilhelm I) done by Franz Krueger in 1836.




Looking for the evolution in English riding saddles where they become flat and flatter to allow the rider to sit rear, and where the pommel is not only nearly flat but cut-back to free the horse's withers.
(But even among the back saddle English saddle the height of the cantle can range higher or lower. The ones I ride are just about flat across the pommel and cantle area, and remind me more of leather pads than saddles. :) )



Curt