english saddles

[Outrider]

Re: english saddles

This is a great thread.
Forgive yet another post-war source but I agree w/Chris that on this subject we should get a pass. Also, this has relevence since in the foward the good General plainly states that the techniques/methods within were a result of lessons learned in "the late war" This is my favorite book on Military riding. It is just fantastic in its detail,photograghs and the wide range of topics covered. It is available online here if anyone would like to check it out who doesnt already have a copy:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hfEMJEmc78YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+us+cavalry+horse&ei=Cac7S7ezMo-2M5ymsKsB&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

It is clear to me that no matter what school - english or western- one learns/rides, neither is really correct for cavalry of the period and yet both are correct for a civilian of the period.

General William H. Carter in The US Cavalry Horse(1895) clearly puts military riding in its own class and properly done it is really a mix of both disciplines. he breaks 'seat' into 3 forms; "long seat"(english), "tongs-across-a -wall" (can be either) "fork seat" ( western) and "military seat"
pg 142-144

"The purpose for which the rider mounts his horse determines to a great extent the kind of seat he will ride. The jockey, in the merest apology for a saddle, with his knees gripping the horses's withers and his feet shoved home in light steel stirrups, and whose sole duty is to ride to orders and land his mount first under the wire, presents few points of resemblance to the cow-boy, who, in a fifty pound saddle, and riding a fork seat, fearlessly ropes half wild cattle or confidently mounts a "bucking" horse.
Military riding cannot be properly classed with any other kind of riding, because its object is entirely different. Park and road riding present no resemblance to it, because in these the individual taste of the rider dictates all his appointments and the gaits of his horse. It is here that the trained and many gaited saddle horse finds his proper field of action. A light leather saddle is all that is required, whereas in military riding a heavy wooden frame, capable of having a hundred pound weight of pack attached, is an absolute necessity. a military saddle also has a high pommel and cantle, which detract much from its apperance, but are indespensable because of the pack.
Hunting involves rough riding across country, but the seat is not limited by any such necesseties as apply in the case of military riding. In following the hounds the rider has usaully a trained jumper, and his riding is practically over a straight away course involving no sudden turns or halts except inevent of accident. Even though the huntsman keeps well up with the hounds, and may at times find himself bunched with many others, it is vastly different from a rushing, thundering noise of a boot-to boot charge over unknown ground, perhaps in a cloud of dust or smoke, where a secure seat, entirely independent of the reins is an absolute necessity."

[Outrider]

Re: english saddles

"Herein lies the problem. Reenactors look at even this...riding...as some form of a re-creation of events from some "imaginary" time ago. Horses are dangerous to those who don't know what they're doing. Horsemanship is timeless and believe me, as one who saw many "cavalrymen" over the years...there's very little of it in reenacting."

Amen Chris. I couldnt agree more. One doesnt have to go far in reenacting to see a decided lack of real horsemanship. Ive had to bite my tongue, and close my eyes on many occasions. I believe this may go back to a false image so many seem to have that to be unable to ride is somehow un-American and so as long as they can "stick a horse" they consider themselves good riders. I am not at all talking about "natural" riders. I have known many over the years who ride very well indeed and have never taken a lesson or who started riding later in life but a good seat, light hands, comes naturally and so dont think much about those sorts of things much but its the ones who are just ignorant and their horses clearly pay the price that get my blood up.

General Carter has something to say about ignorant riders in his day too and obviously had a good many to deal with:

" ...the presence in the ranks of untrained riders is bad in peace and criminal in war, but every army has them. In order to neutralize the effect of their ignorance, good, well fitted saddles and bits are prime necessities. It is the pain and excitement caused in young , nervous horses, by powerful bits in the hands of thoughtless or poor riders, which make them degenerate into plungers and bolters. Curb, spavin, broken knees, and other injuries may frequently be traced to the same cause. Horses thus injured are condemned and sold for a mere trifle, and the indifferent rider is placed on another animal, not infrequently to repeat the same experience through ignorance."

[English Doc]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing.

[COLOR="Blue"]And as it (appearently has) evolved, the head is up, the look forward at where one is going, the shoulders squared, the chest forward, the back erect, the small of the back pulled, the hips lowered, the knees rolled in, the inner thigh contacting the horse, the legs extended on a line below the shoulders and hips (long) in the stirrups, the ball of the foot centred on the stirrup, the heels down, and the toes up AND the feet rotated outward (rather than straight).

while there is obviously the formal military mounted instruction, what vast or not so vast differences were there between an upper class person learning to ride for fox hunting versus the farmer's son learning to ride the plow horse to go into town.

Curt

A quote from , ' The Handbook of Horsemanship: Containing Plain Practical Rules For Riding, Driving And The Management Of Horses' Capt M***** 1842:

"....to which may be added the riding-master's usual laconic directions of,
" body back-elbows down-toes up-and heels out". But if, on the contrary, the knees are opened outwards, the under-part of the thighs on the saddle, the heels drawn up, and turned in, and the toes outwards, such positions are insecure, dangerous, ugly, and vulgar............although he makes use of both [bridle and stirrups] he is not to hang on the one, nor cling by the others. The bridle is only used for guidance - the stirrups to rest the feet upon....."

Again, gentlemanly references. As Mr Schmidt has alluded to, most of the common 'riding' population would be self taught. I (yes, I am VERY common!) have NEVER had but one lesson (to rectify a 'spinning' issue I had), but I still have a full trophy cabinet for reining, cutting and penning. The same would go for the majority back in the day I reckon...(but minus the trophies!)

[CJSchumacher]

Re: english saddles

A quote from , ' The Handbook of Horsemanship: Containing Plain Practical Rules For Riding, Driving And The Management Of Horses' Capt M***** 1842:

"....But if, on the contrary, the knees are opened outwards, the under-part of the thighs on the saddle, the heels drawn up, and turned in, and the toes outwards, such positions are insecure, dangerous, ugly, and vulgar............although he makes use of both [bridle and stirrups] he is not to hang on the one, nor cling by the others. The bridle is only used for guidance - the stirrups to rest the feet upon....."

I call this the Mel Gibson school of riding. Have you ever seen that guy ride in Braveheart or any other film of his that requires a horse?? That's the riding I've seen by A LOT of reenactors. Its that false sense of security by driving deep in the seat, legs forward, while pushing their "heels down" with their toes at 45 degree outward angles. There's nothing balanced about that and the stirrup leather and stirrup is relied upon to steady themselves vs. merely be a place for the foot to rest. Vulgar is exactly the term I'd use as well!

Anyway, the entire discussion about the English seat has been great and I feel that the closer contact one has with the horse, the better their seat will be. Dressage teaches this perfectly.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: english saddles

Hallo!

Yes, the conversation gets interesting when one thinks that a cavalryman was a civilian before the necessities of cavalry life, and returned to one after.
Or better yet, we sometimes assume or presume that all mid 19th century folk were born and bred to horses. Which may be true for the countryside, but perhaps not so much to lads raised in the growing cities of that era who did not have horses.

"I call this the Mel Gibson school of riding. Have you ever seen that guy ride in Braveheart or any other film of his that requires a horse?? That's the riding I've seen by A LOT of reenactors. Its that false sense of security by driving deep in the seat, legs forward, while pushing their "heels down" with their toes at 45 degree outward angles. There's nothing balanced about that and the stirrup leather and stirrup is relied upon to steady themselves vs. merely be a place for the foot to rest. Vulgar is exactly the term I'd use as well!"

I am reminded of Hugh Jackman in "Australia." When being cast for the part of the drover, he said he lied when asked if he could ride. And then hoped that no one saw him fall off while he was at riding classes.

IMHO, and perhaps defying a century or two of form and function...

I really do not see, other than in tradition and the "formality" of style and form, the issue of the toes (foot) up, or out when everything else is "proper" in terms of where the saddle is sat, the head, the chest, and back, the hips, the inner thighs, and the knees.
Meaning, I was taught to place the heels down with the toes out and be sure to pay attention to the heel not riding the ribs of the horse. I hate as unnecessary.
But as one of my "English" instructors taught, when in the saddle forget that there is anything below your knees.

Ah, for the wonders of what a film of original CW era horse instruction/training was like for civillians as well as military...

:)

Curt
Civillian Intermediate Rider Mess

[IowaYank]

Re: english saddles

Hello all, I have a saddle that I recently purchased that fits along the lines of this discussion, so I figured I would revive an old thread. I was recently at a trapping convention and ran across this English saddle at one of the tailgaters booth. It immediately caught my eye. I have very little education on English saddles, but it looked like something that is semi period for what we do. Can anyone help identify if this saddle truly is CW period,,,,,or for that matter what period it would be?? The billet straps are obviously replacements, but everything else seems to be original to the saddle. All of the hardware appears to be of iron. I can not tell if the padding under the saddle is stuffed with horse hair or not.

Oh, and for $60 bucks, I figured I couldn't go wrong picking it up!! I don't think the guy knew what he had (although to be honest I am not sure what I have yet either! )

[YMikels]

Re: english saddles

Dan,

I really hate to disappoint you...being a horsey pard and all.

But I'd say you're the proud owner of a Japanese Cavalry saddle circa 1935-1945. I have two in my collection, one being completely unissued and the other in damn fine condition complete with the canvas saddle bags. Yours is missing a few attachment points including a nice little brass trimmed spoon at the cantle. Those two iron "L" shaped attachment points at the back, that's where you pass the grommets through for the canvas bags. Call me tomorrow if you want to know more clues as to provenance as I'm sure there are some faint characters, which I'm sure you cannot read, under the side skirt. It's certainly not German if that puts you any more at ease as I have one of those as well.

I now know how bad you were wanting to put that China theater impression together. About the only place they used Cavalry in any significance. But Dan, you're entirely too tall and your eyes too round.....

Highest regards,

[IowaYank]

Re: english saddles

yup, pretty sure your right Yurko! I went looking on Ebay and found saddles very much like mine listed as a Japanese saddle. Well, so much for my new civilian/CS cavalry saddle!!! :-) Oh well!! Thanks!

[GAR]

Re: english saddles

On the plus side, Dan, you could likely sell it on ebay for much more than you paid as $60 seems like a real bargain.
Ken commented on how little English saddles have changed over the last few centuries. What amazes me is that after a 4000 plus year riding relationship with the horse, that a saddle can even be improved upon.