Horse of a different color

[idlewild]

I was recently browsing through the images on Ken Knopp's website confederatesaddles.com and while going through the gallery of mounted confederates this photo in particular stood out to me:

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?p=449&pid=143

The reason I noted it with particular interest was because of the coloring of the horse. Not only is the horse showing characteristics of being a very obvious Roan, he is also showing some classic leg and facial markings associated with the paint horse overo category pattern called "Sabino".

It a pattern that is noted for it's long jagged leg markings (note the white on just the front of this horse's hind legs that reach all the way up to his body, that is classic Sabino) and white facial markings. Other traits common to the gene that this horse isn't showing, or I just can't see any evidence of, are belly spots and chin spots. All of these traits can be so minimal as to where there is almost no white on the horse, or they can be expressed so loudly that the horse is entirely white in appearance. Here is a link with some more information on Sabino http://www.equinecolor.com/sabino.html

The Roan coloration (seperate gene from Sabino) is obvious because of the well defined line at the jowl of the horse between the dark and the light coloration. The darker head is classic Roan.

Forgive me if this has been noted before (and I hope I placed this in the appropriate location), but this is the first period image of a horse with markings and coloration like this that I've come across and I find it very intriguing! I've seen plain roans and buckskins (though mostly in photos dating around the turn of the century), but I haven't seen a paint horse like this before.

I am continuing to browse and search, I'm curious now if I can find any other horses with paint patterns expressed (even if minimal).

Just thought I would share.
Emily

[AZFarrier]

Re: Horse of a different color

Emily
I think you right on the Roan but I think you could be streching on the Paint though. The picture is blurred and much atrifact on the picture. I always looked at this picture and just passed over it thinking it was a flee bit grey.
As you already know the army wanted solid color horses but there were varients such as dapples, flee bits, and yes I could say roans, as long as it was minimal color change. I have seen Sabinos with only 1 pach of white either on the chest or hind quarter so I can defalt to my earlier statement. I think the Paint horse discussion has been beat long enough, could there be paint horses used during the civil war...yes there could especially during the later years, but we don't find a lot of evidence to support this fact. Several books I have read about the later indian war period (after the civil war) discusses the allowances for painted horses especially during campaign excersions but these horses were grouped into the later companies Co K, L, & M
Emily thank you for your post, it certainly makes me want to go back and look over several horse pictures of the time and look harder.

[RJSamp]

Re: Horse of a different color

I was recently browsing through the images on Ken Knopp's website confederatesaddles.com and while going through the gallery of mounted confederates this photo in particular stood out to me:

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?p=449&pid=143

The reason I noted it with particular interest was because of the coloring of the horse. Not only is the horse showing characteristics of being a very obvious Roan, he is also showing some classic leg and facial markings associated with the paint horse overo category pattern called "Sabino".

It a pattern that is noted for it's long jagged leg markings (note the white on just the front of this horse's hind legs that reach all the way up to his body, that is classic Sabino) and white facial markings. Other traits common to the gene that this horse isn't showing, or I just can't see any evidence of, are belly spots and chin spots. All of these traits can be so minimal as to where there is almost no white on the horse, or they can be expressed so loudly that the horse is entirely white in appearance. Here is a link with some more information on Sabino http://www.equinecolor.com/sabino.html

The Roan coloration (seperate gene from Sabino) is obvious because of the well defined line at the jowl of the horse between the dark and the light coloration. The darker head is classic Roan.

Forgive me if this has been noted before (and I hope I placed this in the appropriate location), but this is the first period image of a horse with markings and coloration like this that I've come across and I find it very intriguing! I've seen plain roans and buckskins (though mostly in photos dating around the turn of the century), but I haven't seen a paint horse like this before.

I am continuing to browse and search, I'm curious now if I can find any other horses with paint patterns expressed (even if minimal).

Just thought I would share.
Emily

Good Stuff Emily. My sister raises Paints (both Overo and Sabino) and your picture doesn't look anything like them. Visited the website you supplied and I noted the Arabian blood in the Sabino's.....including the gray listed as purebred Arabian that most looked like your picture....white flashings on the front of the legs.....

as a bugler\bandsman I love the grays....thanks for the picture!

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Horse of a different color

The Canadian Horse breed was one of the most common breeds during the war, though the lighter colors in this breed are rare.

John Walsh

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: Horse of a different color

Remember that early photography skewed color. Don't know how that would effect breed detection, but sometimes "color" was skewed to the point of plaids looking like stripes, or patterns blending with a background on fabrics. :) Same might happen with the patterning on a horse's coat if they're similar colors.

[csabugler]

Re: Horse of a different color

Hey Elaine, your're not suggesting the use of plaid horses during the war, are you? :D

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Horse of a different color

Emily, I bought a black fifteen years ago, over the course of the years he has been a roan, an iron gray, a dapple gray, a flea bitten gray and finally nearly white. He hasn't been the exact same color two years in a row... The point is, at one point he was roaned similar to the pattern in this picture. I can assure you he isn't even close to any sort of a paint! I've yet to see any evidence of a true paint under saddle during the war and many wouldn't consider the horse in question a paint, but a roan. My $0.02. TEH

[KarinTimour]

Re: Horse of a different color

What's the difference between a "gray" and a "flea-bitten gray?"

Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Horse of a different color

Soild gray vs. a multi-shade gray "tweed" look.

Mike Nickerson

[neocelt]

Re: Horse of a different color

All "gray" horses have coats that are comprised of a combination of black and white hairs. It is merely the relative amount of each and their placement that result in different hues and patterns.

Interesting thread. I found Elaine's contribution to be particularly enlightening (Zack's, too)--we often forget to take the vagaries of period photography into account.

[RJSamp]

Re: Horse of a different color

Soild gray vs. a multi-shade gray "tweed" look.

Mike Nickerson

My flea bitten gray had smaller than a pencil tip clumps/blotches of brown hair (hmmm, large magic marker dots!) .....those would be pebble scattering of 'flea bites'....amongst a sea of white....she had been a brown thoroughbred\QH mix (Appendix) at an early age.

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Horse of a different color

My flea bitten gray had smaller than a pencil tip clumps/blotches of brown hair (hmmm, large magic marker dots!) .....those would be pebble scattering of 'flea bites'....amongst a sea of white....she had been a brown thoroughbred\QH mix (Appendix) at an early age.

RJ Stamp.... A Bugler's Bugler .... rides a gray.... who would have thunk it?

You and neocelt are both very correct, I was trying to give a very simple answer to the question.

Mike Nickerson

[idlewild]

Re: Horse of a different color

Andy, I most heartily agree on the paint horse subject, to bring that up would be beating a dead horse! (no pun intended). I'm merely looking for photos of horses that show markings similar to what we now know today to be caused by paint genetics (i.e. large wide blazes and high stockings). This horse shows leg/facial markings similar to sabino. Now can I really prove this horse is sabino? Nope, not with a genetic test which is impossible for obvious reasons! But I would feel comfortable saying the horse has a good chance of it.

Elaine, thank you for your point about color/patterns being skewed by the photography. I will admit in my excitement over finding photos I sometimes forget that :o

Zack, good point! I do believe the horse in the picture is roan. It's just the white legs/face that leads me to think it could be a paint (not all paint horses have to have white on their body to be a paint). Thanks very much for the input!

I'm still not sure what exactly I'll do with this information... or of what relevance it really has! But eh, I'm having fun.

[MissPaxson]

Re: Horse of a different color

Judging from the build and coloring it might be a blue or red roan Appaloosa. I only say this since the horse resembles my appy in both body, face and color.

[greenmountainboy]

Re: Horse of a different color

idlewild

blaze and white stockings does not constitute markings from paint horses per se'.
In the Early 1800's Morgans were sometimes known to have socks, not high to the knee but socks, and some had blaze markings not wide but narrow lengthy type blaze.
However, In the Civil war there wer app. 4000-5000 Cherokee Indians that fought on both sides, and the Horses they rode.... thats right their ponies that were painted, but not all were I would suppose because the Cherokee also had solids.
SO yes I would say their was at least 1 Paint that fought in the Civil war.
Anyway, I attached a picture of Capt. George A. Custer and Gen. Alfred Pleasonton, Custer, a Captain at the time of this picture is on a Black Morgan horse, Pleasanton is riding a roany type, appoloosa type, draft type : ) Horse.

If I run across more I will submit them!

Kelly Austin