Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

[Ken Knopp]

CS (?) Enameled Cloth Saddle Bags

I am not saying these are Confederate but they are interesting so I wanted to share them with ya'll to see what you think. These just came to the surface at the Nashville CW show last weekend, They came out of an old collection in the Dallas Texas area with no provenance but not necessarily TM...they could have originated anywhere. They have ersatz characteristics similar to other CS arsenal made bags including the somewhat common use of enameled canvas rather than scarce leather and the type buckle employed however, they could easily be civilian or a special made item. Certainly, they are 19th century (IMHO) and have their own unique pattern differing from the usual Confederate "crows foot" copies of the Federal issue McClellan saddle bags including large rounded edge flaps at the top (instead of squared yet squared at the bottom) and large, deep pockets.
They are big. The outside flap measures 15 inches wide by 12 inches high. Each flap has two 7 1/2 inch leather straps to accommodate a 3/4 inch (interior width) cast, iron horseshoe buckle. The flap is double sewn to the leather back strap.
Each pocket measures 14 inches high by 13 inches wide and 2 inch depth. Each pocket also has a unique, large opening with a folded and sewn top edge at the opening. The tapered russet leather back strap (four inches wide at the narrow) is sewn under the canvas exposing 10 inches of leather between the pockets.
There is no clear indication of a hole for a saddle bag stud, slots or additional straps for attaching these bags to the saddle so it is not clear how this was done.
I have some photos of other CS "crows foot" (or "Y" Strap) bags on my web site for comparison.


Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Outrider]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

Wow those are cool and actually big enough to haul stuff in. They have a sort of homemade look about them to me. I wonder if they were meant to be attached under the bed roll so that the coat strap holds both secure? Thanks for posting the pics Ken.

[T.Kern]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

Nice pics but there is nothing to indicate any association with CS service. One can not even be sure they are of the period. Nor do the horseshoe buckles indicate CS when clearly the correspondance shows , at least in eastern production , CS manufactored items were using all roller buckles. Certainly no CS bags come with a hole for saddle bags stud since no CS saddles came with a saddle bag stud. How period civilain saddle bags were used is you simply sat on them. Nice pics of some sort of what appears to be old saddlebags nothing more, a fun antique to look at. This is a typical "dealer" story. Anyone trying to portray a period horseman would be better to copy a know set of bags.
Todd Kern

CS (?) Enameled Cloth Saddle Bags

I am not saying these are Confederate but they are interesting so I wanted to share them with ya'll to see what you think. These just came to the surface at the Nashville CW show last weekend, They came out of an old collection in the Dallas Texas area with no provenance but not necessarily TM...they could have originated anywhere. They have ersatz characteristics similar to other CS arsenal made bags including the somewhat common use of enameled canvas rather than scarce leather and the type buckle employed however, they could easily be civilian or a special made item. Certainly, they are 19th century (IMHO) and have their own unique pattern differing from the usual Confederate "crows foot" copies of the Federal issue McClellan saddle bags including large rounded edge flaps at the top (instead of squared yet squared at the bottom) and large, deep pockets.
They are big. The outside flap measures 15 inches wide by 12 inches high. Each flap has two 7 1/2 inch leather straps to accommodate a 3/4 inch (interior width) cast, iron horseshoe buckle. The flap is double sewn to the leather back strap.
Each pocket measures 14 inches high by 13 inches wide and 2 inch depth. Each pocket also has a unique, large opening with a folded and sewn top edge at the opening. The tapered russet leather back strap (four inches wide at the narrow) is sewn under the canvas exposing 10 inches of leather between the pockets.
There is no clear indication of a hole for a saddle bag stud, slots or additional straps for attaching these bags to the saddle so it is not clear how this was done.
I have some photos of other CS "crows foot" (or "Y" Strap) bags on my web site for comparison.


Ken R Knopp
www.confederatesaddles.com

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

Todd,

Hmmmm, I am sorry Todd but perhaps you did not read my post very carefully. No direct association to CS service was made. In fact, I was clear to point out that they are not represented to be CS adding that they could easily be civilian or some kind of special made bags.
As for hardware, I hate to beat this dead horse again (we seem to have this same conversation every year or so) but must take issue here. CS correspondence and records do NOT clearly show eastern production "using all roller buckles". When talking about Confederate "anything" it is best to be careful with blanket statements.
First, contractor's delivery vouchers list all kinds of buckles including horse shoe buckles being made and shipped to Richmond. One, M. Russell of Dalton/Americus Georgia made 5/8, 3/4, 7/8, one and 1 -1/4 inch roller and horse shoe buckles beginning in 1862 through March 1865. Large numbers going to the Richmond Arsenal in the summer and fall of 1862. Russell also made rings, staples, hooks, chains for several arsenals including Richmond, Atlanta, Macon and Columbus until March 1865. Also, over 4,000 canteens for Atlanta.
Second, wire (iron and brass) horse shoe buckles were a very common Confederate accoutrement buckle employed on waist belts, bridles and spur straps to name a few places. They were simple and inexpensive to make (did not require the buckle forming machines like that for roller buckles). Their manufacture was somewhat common in Federal use prior to the war and therefore familiar to experienced Confederate Ordnance officers. They were also certainly used to some limited extent by the Federals during the war (I have seen link straps and artillery bridles with them). In addition. they can be found on surviving pieces of CS and US equipment which also begs the question, why else then are they dug in such large numbers from CW "eastern" (and western) sites? In fact, I got a handful of them out of Virginia digger's box in Nashville.
I did however, offer an opinion in my belief these bags are 19th century. The use of that type buckle in military equipment (civilian too) was far more common prior to the war. After the war, these thin, wire horse shoe buckles were less common in commercial manufacture (not at all in US military). They were considered cheap. One does not see them used on commercial made saddlery nor in the catalogs much after the war. Less so in the 20th century. The same goes with enameled cloth. In general, it was also considered a cheap replacement for leather.
No doubt, roller buckles were/are clearly a better buckle. They were made in the South and imported from England but iron and brass horseshoe buckles appear to have been quite common during the war.
Todd, forgive me if I appear harsh here. I was perhaps, a bit fuzzy in my explanation of the bags. I cannot and did not mean to imply they are CS but still, they could be. At any rate, we generated some discussion about them. Which was my purpose for posting these bags as "interesting". Thank you.

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Outrider]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

Nice pics but there is nothing to indicate any association with CS service. One can not even be sure they are of the period. Nor do the horseshoe buckles indicate CS when clearly the correspondance shows , at least in eastern production , CS manufactored items were using all roller buckles. Certainly no CS bags come with a hole for saddle bags stud since no CS saddles came with a saddle bag stud. How period civilain saddle bags were used is you simply sat on them. Nice pics of some sort of what appears to be old saddlebags nothing more, a fun antique to look at. This is a typical "dealer" story. Anyone trying to portray a period horseman would be better to copy a know set of bags.
Todd Kern

Well, its always something ain't it? Personally I could not give a r.... ... if these were confederate made or used. It was clear to me in reading the post that there was no claim to that. But Todd since you brought it up... what is the basis for your stating that "how period civilian saddlebags were used is you simply sat on them"? I have seen bags designed to be used that way but they had a second strap to go around behind the cantle to keep them from shifting. Please let us know on what you are baseing that statement .

For some of us, believe it or not, an item(s) does not have to be confederate or even military to be of interest and in some cases makes it even more so. I am one of those.

[Emily Burns]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

That is an interesting bag. Thanks so much for sharing it with us here. :)

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

Nice pics but there is nothing to indicate any association with CS service. One can not even be sure they are of the period. Nice pics of some sort of what appears to be old saddlebags nothing more, a fun antique to look at. This is a typical "dealer" story.

This kind of attitude, is exactly what spurns people not to share.

While it would be almost impossible to postively confirm these bags issuance by the Confederate Government, or use of by a Confederate Soldier...one should not be so quick to condemn these.

Without being able to lay mine own hands on these bags (and I'm not an expert, but have examined a few things in my life), all I have to work from is the pictures Mr. Knopp was so kind to share. The appearance apparant from the bags, have some interesting features; they're old (not indicative of being mid-19th century, but this isn't something that was made yesterday) painted cloth, horseshoe buckles, odd pattern...someone who examines the bags would have to attest to the construction techniques...do they appear to be period? Hell...maybe we can date the textiles/leather used in the bag to be of the period?

There's alot of items out there, be they jackets, accoutrements...etc., that have no provenance, are the only example of such item from the war...and at this point Modern Historians and Collectors have been led to the conclusion that these other examples of equipment are of the period, and sometimes specifically attributed to be of Confederate origin.

Nor do the horseshoe buckles indicate CS when clearly the correspondance shows , at least in eastern production , CS manufactored items were using all roller buckles.

The notion that all CS Horse Equipment "at least eastern production" used solely roller-buckles is absurd, as Mr. Knopp has shown records to the contrary. While there were certainly standards in which both Federal and Confederate workshops attempted to adhere to, it is fact that both sides sometimes found themselves subbing items which in their mind were of acceptable manufacture to get the job done...naturally we see alot more of this on the Confederate side of things. I personally know of at least one half of a set of CS saddlebags (the familiar "Crows Foot" closure), in which the use of a horseshoe buckle appears to be original to the bag...no we don't have any provenance behind the bag, but after having several experts (including Butch Meyers) examine the bag, Butch and the owner are confident that it's of CS origin...and potentially from the harness shops in Clarksville, VA (of eastern production)...do we have any definative proof of this no...the bag was tossed in a box of old harness equipment and sold in the Shenandoah Valley, before finding a home with it's present owner.

Certainly no CS bags come with a hole for saddle bags stud since no CS saddles came with a saddle bag stud. How period civilain saddle bags were used is you simply sat on them.

OK...well maybe we can agree that no CS manufactured McClellan, Grimsley, or Jennifer saddle were issued with saddle-bag studs; right?...but what about other contract saddles, and of course private purchase? Would you be willing to provide documentation that no "other" style saddles would have saddle-bag studs?

Anyone trying to portray a period horseman would be better to copy a know set of bags.

Probably a true statement.

THANKS KEN for sharing this bag with us!

Paul B.

[Ronnie Tucker]

Re: Interesting enameled cloth saddle bags...

i have never saw any enameled canvas horse gear except that which was made for the south during the WBTS the leather shortage was the only reason for this to happen before the war you did not see this nor after either Ronnie Tucker 7th tn cav csa