So this is probably hopeless...

[CJSchumacher]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

I don't know so much either, but I think Todd's intent is that it took a lot to have proper gloves made, regardless of hand or machine sewing. I found this little bit regarding using machines even into the 20th century and the amount of skill it still took to produce a pair. This was from a report to the Children's Bureau, U.S. Department of Labor in the early 1930's as they were trying to eliminate home manufacture in the glove making industry:

Practically all operations connected with the manufacturing of gloves were being performed in the home to some extent, but the chief home-working processes were the making, or seaming of the glove, and "silking." The latter was the term applied to stitching the design on the-back of the glove. This was a machine operation, although it was sometimes combined with hand work. Gloves were made, or seamed in a variety of ways. The operations performed were similar in case, the stitch depending on the type of machine-attachment used...

As a rule the home worker made the complete glove. This work is highly skilled and a considerable period is required for learning. Some of the workers interviewed reported that they had been making gloves for 30 years or more; many had learned the trade in France or ltaly. Because of the skill and training required, the workers were all older girls and women. Of the 68 glove workers included in the study none was under 16 years of age and only 7 were under 20 years of age

I quote this only to illustrate that simply because machines were being used in the 19th century and as evidenced here in glove making in the early 20th century...that didn't immediately translate into simple and "mass-made". This was a skill which took time to learn and required patience, experience, and apparently, best learned overseas.

Nice discussion.

[Spinster]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

I'll be back in that collection within the next few months and will look more closely and get some notes.

My dear Mrs. lawson, I am a bit cunundrified with this remark. Are you refering that you will have the opportunity to delve "in" that collection again, or are you actually "in" the collection??? :D

:D:DThey way those women were looking at me for having my nose so close to the glass makes it likely that they will stuff me in a box and keep me next time, especially if I pull out a sketch book.

[T.Kern]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

I don't know so much either, but I think Todd's intent is that it took a lot to have proper gloves made, regardless of hand or machine sewing. I found this little bit regarding using machines even into the 20th century and the amount of skill it still took to produce a pair. This was from a report to the Children's Bureau, U.S. Department of Labor in the early 1930's as they were trying to eliminate home manufacture in the glove making industry:



I quote this only to illustrate that simply because machines were being used in the 19th century and as evidenced here in glove making in the early 20th century...that didn't immediately translate into simple and "mass-made". This was a skill which took time to learn and required patience, experience, and apparently, best learned overseas.

Nice discussion.

Thanks Chris, Yes while it may have been possible and sewing machines were around , how common were they and, like saddlery or Boots, the finer goods were often custom made by hand. In saddlery case, entirely made by hand but for the occasioal quilted type seat. So how available were they outside the industrial areas or through large contractors? Maybe why we see them in federal returns but not southern ( besides the fact that leather was scarce). I think it is still unclear if gloves were simply cut by machine or if entirely sewn by machine or just the back or a little of both. And by what date. regardless, they were not common in southern cav and no one seems to be able to produce an accurate pattern with right materials today.
Todd Kern

[Outrider]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Ok so I guess we can all agree that leather gauntlets of a military pattern were not particularly common or readily available?

I may well be wrong, but I am just not buying that leather gloves ( just plain old leather gloves)were that rare in the period no matter how hard they were to produce. I mean, to my understanding so were shoes and boots but everyone wasnt going around barefoot were they? If one could walk into a mercantile in St Louis and buy a saddle , all the tack to go with it firearms etc etc etc. he couldnt get gloves? or only rarely? If for example a farmer is trying to clear out blackberry briers from his property , he couldn't get gloves to protect his hands unless he was rich? Or made them himself? How about a cattle drover roping or working cattle? It may be irrelevent ,but once upon a time I was very much into team roping and I would NEVER attempt to rope a steer without gloves. Unless these guys were somehow supermen with bullhide for skin, I have to believe they wouldn't either and there may not have been much roping and seperating of cattle by that means in the East but there most certainly was in the west and the more frontier rural regions in the pre war and war years. Vaqueros used them if contemporary descriptions are to be believed.
I am trying to look into mercantile inventories as opposed to military returns for the info I am interested in. I am the first to admit to not exactly being well educated or a good researcher. It is always a struggle for me to find specific info.
Wrongly, I lumped gauntlets in with all leather gloves in my original question...oops

At any rate ,I believe I must have screwed this thing up bad because I am mainly asking about period gloves in general, if anyone reproduces them, and if not why? NOT cavalry gauntlets ( although I would be interested in having a pair if done corrrectly) or the swanky "gentlemens" dress gloves, necessarily, but just plain old common gloves. [U]I already know that gauntlets, so far, are not accurately reproduced.
As I stated ,I should not have posted this in the Cav folder. I just thought my fellow horsemen might have insight that I do not.


BTW I am needing a pair for a SPECIFIC impression and BEFORE the few years of leather shortage. So am I correct in concluding there is nowhere at this time to obtain a period correct pair of mens leather gloves?
Interesting discussion for me, at least, but I dont think Ive got an answer to that yet. I dont know enough about period gloves to know if those Italian kid gloves that were going around for awhile are close or not. The gauntlets I viewed , in person, are the only originals I have ever seen .

thanks all
and it just occured to me to check the Arabia site and see if any are listed as on board.

[Tom Craig]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Patrick,

I don't know what they have in the way of men's gloves, but my wife scored a very nice pair of civilian gloves on Amazon a while back. The gloves are commercially produced in Italy. They are 100% leather, with what appears to be natural thread, and are available in a variety of colors. It's been a couple of years so I don't know if they still have them, but it's worth a shot. These would not be "working" gloves, but more something one might wear for travel/recreational riding/etc.

Good luck,
Tom Craig

[Outrider]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Thanks Tom. Ive been pointed to Ebay for some Italian kid gloves that are supposedly very close to a "period" glove. Like you say though they wouldnt be " work" gloves or anything bbut more for the purposes that you stated.

later on I will be posting some info a friend is sending me that may help shed a little light on the availablility of leather gloves during our period. Perhaps not relevent to what was being produced here, in this country, but evidently at least one importer in Philadelphia, Pa was offering ALOT of various kinds on leather gloves including, interestingly, " military" style gauntlets - wholesale- to mercantiles etc. for inventory. This was in 1859. interesting stuff.

I will post it when I get it all together. I checked the Arabia site and while the site does not show or list any gloves as being on board, I was surprised to learn ( I admit I am not always "with the program" ) that there were over 5000 pairs of shoes and boots on board many being preserved. Of those shown on the site I would have to say only a few look to be what could be called "fine" quality.....at least to these eyes

thanks again

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

While gloves weren't a standard item of issue, they were neither rare nor particularly expensive. I've attached two articles from period sources that I uncovered in a quick Google Books search. One deals with the general topic of glove manufactures in the United States in our period (Peter Simmonds in The Technologist, 1865), the other talks about the working conditions, pay, and productivity of women employed in the industry (Virginia Penny in The Employments of Women, 1863).

I've seen mention of prices ranging from 75 cents to a dollar and a half, which would put gloves easily within range of the average soldier, given the price of other leather goods like shoes. Simmonds states: "The manufacturers are numerous, and carry on the business on a large scale, in some instances to the amount of 500,000 dols., or even more annually." Given the range of prices this would indicate annual production of many hundreds of thousands of gloves each year in this county, with additional imports.

These aren't just dress gloves, but gloves made several ways for many purposes, including heavy hog skin work gloves and rubber gloves for workers in trades requiring protection.

That gloves saw use in or around the military seems supported by many quotes. W. S. Lincoln documents the purchase of white gloves for parade through the regimental fund of the 34th Massachusetts. Elisha Hunt Rhodes describes a Treasury clerk armed during the Confederate attack on Washington as wearing kid gloves.

The variety of types of gloves manufactured and described in the attached articles leads me to think that one could pretty easily find contemporary gloves similar to those available at the time. You might have to hide the "TrueValue" trade mark, though... :)

[T.Kern]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

While gloves weren't a standard item of issue, they were neither rare nor particularly expensive. I've attached two articles from period sources that I uncovered in a quick Google Books search. One deals with the general topic of glove manufactures in the United States in our period (Peter Simmonds in The Technologist, 1865), the other talks about the working conditions, pay, and productivity of women employed in the industry (Virginia Penny in The Employments of Women, 1863).

I've seen mention of prices ranging from 75 cents to a dollar and a half, which would put gloves easily within range of the average soldier, given the price of other leather goods like shoes. Simmonds states: "The manufacturers are numerous, and carry on the business on a large scale, in some instances to the amount of 500,000 dols., or even more annually." Given the range of prices this would indicate annual production of many hundreds of thousands of gloves each year in this county, with additional imports.

These aren't just dress gloves, but gloves made several ways for many purposes, including heavy hog skin work gloves and rubber gloves for workers in trades requiring protection.

That gloves saw use in or around the military seems supported by many quotes. W. S. Lincoln documents the purchase of white gloves for parade through the regimental fund of the 34th Massachusetts. Elisha Hunt Rhodes describes a Treasury clerk armed during the Confederate attack on Washington as wearing kid gloves.

The variety of types of gloves manufactured and described in the attached articles leads me to think that one could pretty easily find contemporary gloves similar to those available at the time. You might have to hide the "TrueValue" trade mark, though... :)

While I agree that there seems to be many sources and varieties for glove the fact remains that no "true Value" glove is made as they were made then. Especially where this started , Gauntlets. Nor does this take into accont that by the second year of the war the south was very hard pressed for leather. Now I'm sure a man of means could purchase them , if he found a seller, at their inflated price but the average guy in ranks could not. An advertisement in a richmand paper had boots , for example , for $450. A little steep for a guy getting what $12 or 14 by then. Availablity in the north was probably better.
Todd Kern

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

While I agree that there seems to be many sources and varieties for glove the fact remains that no "true Value" glove is made as they were made then. Especially where this started , Gauntlets. Nor does this take into accont that by the second year of the war the south was very hard pressed for leather. Now I'm sure a man of means could purchase them , if he found a seller, at their inflated price but the average guy in ranks could not. An advertisement in a richmand paper had boots , for example , for $450. A little steep for a guy getting what $12 or 14 by then. Availablity in the north was probably better.
Todd Kern

I can't argue with that; most of my research tends to focus on the northern side. From what I've been able to tell, goods got so short in the south that, as far as the Confederate dollar fell, it would still go further in Washington than Richmond.

[neocelt]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Pádraig (brother Celt!) and all,

A number of years ago, I expended a considerable amount of time, energy and treasure (sigh) in the elusive pursuit of having authentic gauntlets reproduced, and the end result was a great deal of capital invested with no return. (Actually, I still have a prototype pair that was copied from a pair of originals in my collection.)

In the US, the glovers' craft began to fade away by the 1920s and was virtually moribund by the post WW II era. Note I said "craft"--I am speaking of the artisans apprenticed and skilled in the glove-making trade--not the mass-produced crapola we see today. Not surprisingly, the glovers' craft managed to hang on a bit longer on the Continent and in the UK, but by the time I was attempting to have period gauntlets reproduced, I was an eyewitness to the closing of the last old-line houses in the UK (primarily in Walsall, the leather industry center for several centuries). I believe they call it "progress." In desperation, I even resorted to attempting to work with a French firm. While I do love the accent (when uttered breathlessly by a woman at any rate), that proved to be an exercise in futility. I came really close, but no cigar...

So short of rooting out a retired real glover (who is not suffering from cataracts and severe arthritis), drafting correct period patterns, obtaining appropriate specialty leathers of period-correct tannages and dyestuffs (again, virtually impossible today--just take my word for it), and having period gloves and gauntlets produced on a bespoke "one-off" basis, you will only wind up with a poor imitation of the genuine article. (Can you say, "FARB"?)

Much of what has been said here is true: During the period, most gloves were entirely (and impeccably) hand-sewn, though examples with some or all machine stitching do exist for the Civil War era. And as Chris Schumacher astutely pointed out, even the machine work of the period was artfully executed--we are not talking about "mass production" techniques here. Period patterns are substantially different than anything that's commercially available today. As Todd and Mssr. Schumacher also noted, the presence of quirks and fourchettes alone makes a world of difference! The fit of the glove is indeed different as well, and period gloves (with the possible exception of heavy work gloves) had long, slender fingers, and the way the thumb was shaped where it meets the palm was also different from modern patterns. Well, you get the idea. Comparing period gloves to modern gloves is like comparing a converted blazer to a four-button fatigue blouse.

As is true of the cordwainer's art, glovemaking not only demanded manual skills accumulated through tedious years spent in the traditional apprentice process, it also required a shop full of appropriate wooden lasts. Needless to say, finding a skilled last maker who is still working and who doesn't value his time, and then recouping one's investment in a wide range of lasts (never mind the leather and silk thread...) renders this project a fiscal boondoggle.

Gloves were indeed prevalent and plentiful during the mid-19th century. But appropriate leather tannages for very specific applications were also plentiful (and produced locally, I might add) and labor--even highly skilled labor--was relatively inexpensive. Further, there was a vast market seeking such a product, whereas if every authenticity-conscious reenactor in the country bought two pair of properly reproduced gloves, it wouldn't amount to a financially feasible project.

Take it from one who knows...

[Outrider]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Tapadh leat Aden !

That is what I was looking for. So it would seem it is rather hopeless..... A pity that.

I shall remain a gloveless wonder.

Thanks all.

[Marylander in Grey]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Here for critique is a pair I have had for 20 years. The are kid with a heavyier weight for the gauntlet part. I had these made by an Amish fellow. Of course this was before I saw the light.
The were made based of a period pair in the private collection of a family member. The stitching on the gauntlet was of my choosing the original had none. Un fortunatley the family member sold the original pair before I was able to get a hold of them.
Supposedly the originals were my GGGF's although I cant say for sure. I looked at the ones in EOG and they look alot different. But I havent payed attention to the repros so I dont know what they look like.
Your comments are greatly apprieciated.

[littleforkranger]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Gents,

I have 24 war time photos of soldiers on both sides wearing gauntlets. One reb is wearing black gloves. I would be glad to share them with anyone who would like to see them......regards........

[T.Kern]

Re: So this is probably hopeless...

Gents,

I have 24 war time photos of soldiers on both sides wearing gauntlets. One reb is wearing black gloves. I would be glad to share them with anyone who would like to see them......regards........

The point is no one makes, nor is it probably possible in this day and age, an authentic pair of guantlets. We have all seen plenty of pics of them but getting some is another story. I will also add that, but for officers private purchase, I have never seen an issue of guantlets in the Southern army. I think it's pretty clear anyone wearing them at events today, especially enlisted, are farbs.
Todd Kern